I know that in German, Nouns are capitalised; it's just part of the
Grammar of the Language, and something you are taught fairly early on if
you learn it.

In English, People still do it quite a lot - but it was obviously part
of what one was taught at some Point: an 1881 Census Form I have in
front of me has along the top "The undermentioned Houses are situate
within the Boundaries of the", and all the Column Headings have such
capitalisation, such as "NAME and Surname of each Person".

I (born 1960) don't remember ever being taught to do this. Anyone know
when it stopped [being something one was officially taught]? (I find it
irritating, especially in modern Text, though I don't know why; I
suppose I imagine the Words being spoken with unnecessary Emphasis.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Imagine a world with no hypothetical situations...

On 30/11/2023 14:55, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> I know that in German, Nouns are capitalised; it's just part of the
> Grammar of the Language, and something you are taught fairly early on if
> you learn it.
>
> In English, People still do it quite a lot - but it was obviously part
> of what one was taught at some Point: an 1881 Census Form I have in
> front of me has along the top "The undermentioned Houses are situate
> within the Boundaries of the", and all the Column Headings have such
> capitalisation, such as "NAME and Surname of each Person".
>
> I (born 1960) don't remember ever being taught to do this. Anyone know
> when it stopped [being something one was officially taught]? (I find it
> irritating, especially in modern Text, though I don't know why; I
> suppose I imagine the Words being spoken with unnecessary Emphasis.)

I'm 11 years older than you and I wasn't taught it either.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 14:55:58 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver"
<G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

>I know that in German, Nouns are capitalised; it's just part of the
>Grammar of the Language, and something you are taught fairly early on if
>you learn it.
>
>In English, People still do it quite a lot - but it was obviously part
>of what one was taught at some Point: an 1881 Census Form I have in
>front of me has along the top "The undermentioned Houses are situate
>within the Boundaries of the", and all the Column Headings have such
>capitalisation, such as "NAME and Surname of each Person".
>
>I (born 1960) don't remember ever being taught to do this. Anyone know
>when it stopped [being something one was officially taught]? (I find it
>irritating, especially in modern Text, though I don't know why; I
>suppose I imagine the Words being spoken with unnecessary Emphasis.)
>
Apart from the usual proper/personal nouns, capitalisation is often
seen where the noun refers to matters in the specific context of the
documents. Thus e.g. "the Sea" is not the same as the all-encompassing
"the sea" but only the body of water which is in the context of the
document. It is IME more now a peculiarity of legal English than of
general "proper" English. The full capitalisation of "NAME" (if it
isn't a typo) above is possibly more a case of emphasis for those
enumerators who would otherwise have put only an initial.

On 30/11/2023 14:55, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> I know that in German, Nouns are capitalised; it's just part of the
> Grammar of the Language, and something you are taught fairly early on if
> you learn it.
>
> In English, People still do it quite a lot - but it was obviously part
> of what one was taught at some Point: an 1881 Census Form I have in
> front of me has along the top "The undermentioned Houses are situate
> within the Boundaries of the", and all the Column Headings have such
> capitalisation, such as "NAME and Surname of each Person".
>
> I (born 1960) don't remember ever being taught to do this. Anyone know
> when it stopped [being something one was officially taught]? (I find it
> irritating, especially in modern Text, though I don't know why; I
> suppose I imagine the Words being spoken with unnecessary Emphasis.)
Of the four types of nouns, I was taught to capitalise only proper
nouns, aka the names of people, places, organisations etc. When and by
whom, I can't say, but we were introduced to writing with lower case
letters in primary school so it was probably then, which, for me, was
during the 1950s.

--
Colin Bignell

On 30/11/2023 15:55, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> I know that in German, Nouns are capitalised; it's just part of the
> Grammar of the Language, and something you are taught fairly early on
> if you learn it.
>
> In English, People still do it quite a lot - but it was obviously
> part of what one was taught at some Point: an 1881 Census Form I have
> in front of me has along the top "The undermentioned Houses are
> situate within the Boundaries of the", and all the Column Headings
> have such capitalisation, such as "NAME and Surname of each Person".
>
> I (born 1960) don't remember ever being taught to do this. Anyone
> know when it stopped [being something one was officially taught]? (I
> find it irritating, especially in modern Text, though I don't know
> why; I suppose I imagine the Words being spoken with unnecessary
> Emphasis.)
In my case I think it started out as a mixture of what I was taught at
school from the fifties (and essays etc which were corrected by
teachers, who probably had their own ideas on capitalisation!) as well
as assimilation through reading books and papers. And then later,through
working for various publishers.
There is some history of the change over time
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalization_in_English
There are plenty of style guides including their current capitalisation
rules available for specific organisations and publishers, some are
published as books e.g.
Harts Rules for Oxford University Press (OUP)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hart%27s_Rules
and
The Times Style Guide
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-times-style-guide-a-guide-to-english-usage-b0wnq9lsl
This link gives some of relevant New Harts Rules on capitalisation
https://premium-oxforddictionaries-com.libproxy.ucl.ac.uk/secondary/harts_rules/5-1-general-principles
Another example is in The Guardian and Observer style guide; see under
"capitals" on this page
https://www.theguardian.com/guardian-observer-style-guide-c which starts:
"Times have changed since the days of medieval manuscripts with
elaborate hand-illuminated capital letters, or Victorian documents in
which not just proper names, but virtually all nouns, were given initial
caps (a Tradition valiantly maintained to this day by Estate Agents).
A look through newspaper archives would show greater use of capitals the
further back you went. The tendency towards lowercase, which in part
reflects a less formal, less deferential society, has been accelerated
by the explosion of the internet: some web companies, and many email
users, have dispensed with capitals altogether.
Our style reflects these developments. We aim for coherence and
consistency, but not at the expense of clarity. As with any aspect of
style, it is impossible to be wholly consistent – there are almost
always exceptions, so if you are unsure check for an individual entry in
this guide. But here are the main principles: "

Colin Bignell wrote:
> On 30/11/2023 14:55, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>> I know that in German, Nouns are capitalised; it's just part of the
>> Grammar of the Language, and something you are taught fairly early on
>> if you learn it.
>>
>> In English, People still do it quite a lot - but it was obviously part
>> of what one was taught at some Point: an 1881 Census Form I have in
>> front of me has along the top "The undermentioned Houses are situate
>> within the Boundaries of the", and all the Column Headings have such
>> capitalisation, such as "NAME and Surname of each Person".
>>
>> I (born 1960) don't remember ever being taught to do this. Anyone know
>> when it stopped [being something one was officially taught]? (I find
>> it irritating, especially in modern Text, though I don't know why; I
>> suppose I imagine the Words being spoken with unnecessary Emphasis.)
> Of the four types of nouns, I was taught to capitalise only proper
> nouns, aka the names of people, places, organisations etc. When and by
> whom, I can't say, but we were introduced to writing with lower case
> letters in primary school so it was probably then, which, for me, was
> during the 1950s.
>
I'm the '44 vintage and this is more or less what I was taught - or
maybe it's just what I grew up reading. However, names of languages are
included such as Latin.

What's more Fowler also agrees and also points out verbs and adjectives
derived from capitalised nouns should also be capitalised, e.g.
Latinised & Latinate.

J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> I know that in German, Nouns are capitalised; it's just part of the
> Grammar of the Language, and something you are taught fairly early on if
> you learn it.
>
> In English, People still do it quite a lot - but it was obviously part
> of what one was taught at some Point: an 1881 Census Form I have in
> front of me has along the top "The undermentioned Houses are situate
> within the Boundaries of the", and all the Column Headings have such
> capitalisation, such as "NAME and Surname of each Person".
>
> I (born 1960) don't remember ever being taught to do this. Anyone know
> when it stopped [being something one was officially taught]? (I find it
> irritating, especially in modern Text, though I don't know why; I
> suppose I imagine the Words being spoken with unnecessary Emphasis.)

Just to quote a contrary case, I'm working on a C18th copy of a map
supposedly of the time of Henry V. This includes a list of landmarks,
some of which have two word names. The first word is capitalised and
the second not, e.g. "Within edge". Many of them do have the faintest
of hyphens but not Within edge.

In message <xh2cnYwcaYOfh_T4nZ2dnZfqnPednZ2d@brightview.co.uk> at Thu,
30 Nov 2023 23:25:53, Ian Goddard <ian_ng@austonley.org.uk> writes
>Colin Bignell wrote:
[]
>> Of the four types of nouns, I was taught to capitalise only proper
>>nouns, aka the names of people, places, organisations etc. When and by
>>whom, I can't say, but we were introduced to writing with lower case
>>letters in primary school so it was probably then, which, for me, was
>>during the 1950s.

Now you mention it, yes, I think I was taught only to capitalise proper
names, and a few exceptions like days of the week, months, and so on.

I might capitalise parts of an expression, but usually only jocularly
and informally - such as "excessive capitalisation is a Bad Thing."
>>
>I'm the '44 vintage and this is more or less what I was taught - or
>maybe it's just what I grew up reading. However, names of languages
>are included such as Latin.

Yes, agreed. (It's noticeable that that isn't the case in some other
languages, such as I think French.)
>
>What's more Fowler also agrees and also points out verbs and adjectives
>derived from capitalised nouns should also be capitalised, e.g.
>Latinised & Latinate.

I suppose so. I'd have referred to my Partridge if I hadn't lost it - if
only to see whether I agreed with what he said; I found him an excessive
pedant, but very logical and thus a pleasure to read, whether I agreed
with what he said or not. (Always amused me that, presumably, a
partridge is one of the things a fowler would hunt.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

I hope you dream a pig.

On 30/11/2023 23:32, Ian Goddard wrote:
> Just to quote a contrary case, I'm working on a C18th copy of a map
> supposedly of the time of Henry V.  This includes a list of landmarks,
> some of which have two word names.  The first word is capitalised and
> the second not, e.g. "Within edge".  Many of them do have the faintest
> of hyphens but not Within edge.

Conventions change over the years, if you look in old newspapers they
usually have streets as "high-street" with no capitalisation.

On 01/12/2023 00:48, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> I suppose so. I'd have referred to my Partridge if I hadn't lost it - if
> only to see whether I agreed with what he said; I found him an excessive
> pedant, but very logical and thus a pleasure to read, whether I agreed
> with what he said or not. (Always amused me that, presumably, a
> partridge is one of the things a fowler would hunt.)

That thought never occurred to me!
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Fri, 1 Dec 2023 08:13:48 +0000, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:

>On 30/11/2023 23:32, Ian Goddard wrote:
>> Just to quote a contrary case, I'm working on a C18th copy of a map
>> supposedly of the time of Henry V.  This includes a list of landmarks,
>> some of which have two word names.  The first word is capitalised and
>> the second not, e.g. "Within edge".  Many of them do have the faintest
>> of hyphens but not Within edge.
>
>
>Conventions change over the years, if you look in old newspapers they
>usually have streets as "high-street" with no capitalisation.

I was about to post the example of High-street in newspapers when I
read this, as I have seen dozens, if not hundreds, like that. I
suppose that the capitalisation of street, road, crescent &c followed
the abandonment of the hyphen, which I suspect was 1950s onwards.

In message <gdrjmi1i61aof5vrm96otd5ngkjpjpaf18@4ax.com> at Fri, 1 Dec
2023 14:32:40, Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> writes
>On Fri, 1 Dec 2023 08:13:48 +0000, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>
>>On 30/11/2023 23:32, Ian Goddard wrote:
>>> Just to quote a contrary case, I'm working on a C18th copy of a map
>>> supposedly of the time of Henry V.  This includes a list of landmarks,
>>> some of which have two word names.  The first word is capitalised and
>>> the second not, e.g. "Within edge".  Many of them do have the faintest
>>> of hyphens but not Within edge.
>>
>>
>>Conventions change over the years, if you look in old newspapers they
>>usually have streets as "high-street" with no capitalisation.
>
>I was about to post the example of High-street in newspapers when I
>read this, as I have seen dozens, if not hundreds, like that. I
>suppose that the capitalisation of street, road, crescent &c followed
>the abandonment of the hyphen, which I suspect was 1950s onwards.

Never thought of that; I suspect you're right. The abandonment of the
hyphen is a great loss to comprehension: actually, people still use the
odd one, but seem terrified of using two, where they would be
appropriate and clarify things no end.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

There should be a place on the ballot paper for 'None of the above', and if
enough people filled that in, the system might start to change. - Jeremy
Paxman in RT, 2014/1/25-31

On 2023-11-30 18:44:49 +0000, john1 said:

> On 30/11/2023 15:55, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>
>> I know that in German, Nouns are capitalised; it's just part of the
>>
>> Grammar of the Language, and something you are taught fairly early on
>>
>> if you learn it.
>>
>>
>>
>> In English, People still do it quite a lot - but it was obviously
>>
>> part of what one was taught at some Point: an 1881 Census Form I have
>>
>> in front of me has along the top "The undermentioned Houses are
>>
>> situate within the Boundaries of the", and all the Column Headings
>>
>> have such capitalisation, such as "NAME and Surname of each Person".
>>
>>
>>
>> I (born 1960) don't remember ever being taught to do this. Anyone
>>
>> know when it stopped [being something one was officially taught]? (I
>>
>> find it irritating, especially in modern Text, though I don't know
>>
>> why; I suppose I imagine the Words being spoken with unnecessary
>>
>> Emphasis.)
>>
>
>
> In my case I think it started out as a mixture of what I was taught at
>
> school from the fifties (and essays etc which were corrected by
>
> teachers, who probably had their own ideas on capitalisation!) as well
>
> as assimilation through reading books and papers. And then later,through
>
> working for various publishers.
>
>
>
> There is some history of the change over time
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalization_in_English
>
>
>
> There are plenty of style guides including their current capitalisation
>
> rules available for specific organisations and publishers, some are
>
> published as books e.g.
>
> Harts Rules for Oxford University Press (OUP)
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hart%27s_Rules

Try to get the 39th edition of the original. The Oxford Style Guide is
a waste of paper.
>
>
> and
>
> The Times Style Guide
>
> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-times-style-guide-a-guide-to-english-usage-b0wnq9lsl
>
>
>
>
> This link gives some of relevant New Harts Rules on capitalisation
>
> https://premium-oxforddictionaries-com.libproxy.ucl.ac.uk/secondary/harts_rules/5-1-general-principles
>
>
>
>
> Another example is in The Guardian and Observer style guide; see under
>
> "capitals" on this page
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/guardian-observer-style-guide-c which starts:
>
>
>
> "Times have changed since the days of medieval manuscripts with
>
> elaborate hand-illuminated capital letters, or Victorian documents in
>
> which not just proper names, but virtually all nouns, were given initial
>
> caps (a Tradition valiantly maintained to this day by Estate Agents).
>
>
>
> A look through newspaper archives would show greater use of capitals the
>
> further back you went. The tendency towards lowercase, which in part
>
> reflects a less formal, less deferential society, has been accelerated
>
> by the explosion of the internet: some web companies, and many email
>
> users, have dispensed with capitals altogether.
>
>
>
> Our style reflects these developments. We aim for coherence and
>
> consistency, but not at the expense of clarity. As with any aspect of
>
> style, it is impossible to be wholly consistent – there are almost
>
> always exceptions, so if you are unsure check for an individual entry in
>
> this guide. But here are the main principles: "
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 36 years; mainly
in England until 1987.