JTEM is so reasonable wrote:
> Primum Sapienti wrote:
>
>> The Zanclean flood involved the Straits of Gibraltar
>
> Me: These events are global. The implications can't be
> limited to the local area. They're too huge.
>
> You: "See, it happened & stuff so yuz wrong."

You: No evidence.

Me:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanclean_flood

"The Zanclean flood occurred when the Strait of Gibraltar opened."

"Red Sea" not mentioned.

snorkel nose wrote:
> kudu runner:
>> The Zanclean flood involved the Straits of Gibraltar
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanclean_flood
>> "The Zanclean flood occurred when the Strait of Gibraltar opened."
>> "Red Sea" not mentioned.
>
> Sigh: again:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanclean_flood

Red Sea is NOT mentioned, child.

Primum Sapienti wrote:

> You: No evidence.

If this isn't just your disorder speaking, if you actually
believe you can create a sea and not face global
implications, you need to destroy your computer.

-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/721666107169292289

Op zondag 2 juli 2023 om 07:08:00 UTC+2 schreef Primum Sapienti:
> snorkel nose wrote:
> > kudu runner:
> >> The Zanclean flood involved the Straits of Gibraltar
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanclean_flood
> >> "The Zanclean flood occurred when the Strait of Gibraltar opened."
> >> "Red Sea" not mentioned.
> >
> > Sigh: again:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanclean_flood

> Red Sea is NOT mentioned, child.

:-DDD
You're crazy: again:

Sigh: again:
1) again: Francesca Mansfield argued the Zanclean mega-flood (5.33 Ma) also opened the Red Sea into the Gulf/Aden.
2) Whether this is so (exactly 5.33 Ma), or the Red Sea opened 7 or 4 Ma, all it does NOT change the scenario, only the possible date:
- Pan went right = E.Afr.coast -> southern Rift -> Au.africanus->robustus (// Pr.afarensis->boisei in northern Rift)
- Homo went left = S.Asian coast -> e.g. early-Pleist.H.erectus Java google "pachyosteosclerosis"=regularly shallow-diving.
IOW, only incredible imbeciles still believe their Plio-Pleist.ancestors ran after antilopes on Afr.savannas. :-DDD

My 2022 book p.299-300:

Bijlage 16. Hypothese: Platentektoniek en Hominoïde Opdelingen

Diersoorten splitsen in 2 aparte soorten vaak door geografische soortvorming (allopatrische speciatie), in ons geval o.a. door botsende of scheurende continenten?
Een ‘gewone’ continentsnelheid is ~5 cm/jaar, maar Indië dook, en duikt nog, van zuid naar noord onder/tegen Azië met wel ~20 cm/jaar, de Himalaya opstuwend. Toen Indië Azië naderde (~30–25 Ma?), ontstonden daar eerst eiland-bogen (plooien of ‘rimpels’ in de aardkorst) vol lage, hete, natte kustbossen (vgl. bv. Indonesië?). Geleken de Catarrhini die die eilanden bereikten, wat op de huidige Nasalis-Rhinopith. in de mangroves? Eilandbewoners evolueren soms wat speciaal. De oermensapen (Hominoidea) gingen in die waterbossen tweebenig waden, (google "aquarboreal") soms zwemmen, en klommen, armen omhoog, in de takken boven het water, ze werden groter, kregen een erg breed borstbeen,(sternum) borstkas en bekken, lange armen en benen die makkelijk op- en zijwaarts bewogen, en een korte, verticale, centraal gelegen lendenwervelzuil, en verloren in het water hun staart (google aquarboreal).
Toen Indië onder Azië drong, verdeelde dat hen in kleine- en grote-mensapen (~20 Ma?), die de Oost-, resp. West-Euraziatische Tethys-oceaankusten volgden. (Splitste de beginnende Himalaya ook de hondapen: slankapen Oost, meerkatten West?)
En verdeelde Mesopotamische Zeewegsluiting later (~15 Ma? Bialik 2019) de grote-mensapen: sivapitheken–pongiden Oost, dryopitheken–hominiden West?
• De pongiden volgden in Zuid-Azië oostwaarts de kustbossen: drongen die ‘oer-orangs’ later de kleine-mensapen (de ‘oergibbons’) hoger de bomen in?
• De hominiden volgden de Tethys-zee, thans de Middellandse Zee: o.a. de tweebenige voetafdrukken op Trachilos (Kreta ~6 Ma? Gierliński 2017, Kirscher 2021), Graeco- en Oreopithecus, en veel andere die via waterwegen Europa binnentrokken (Hdst 3). De Mediterrane hominiden stierven uit (mega-vloed? droogte? hitte? afkoeling?), alleen die in de Rode Zee overleefden:
De beginnende Grote Slenk (East-African Rift System EARS, ~8 Ma?) werd o.a. bevolkt door Praeanthropus–Gorilla-australopitheken via waterbossen aan de noordkant (Afar, Turkana-meer enz.), bv. laat-Pliocene graciele afarensis (Lucy)  vroeg-Pleistocene robuuste boisei.
Toen de Rode Zee zich opende in de Golf (exact 5,33 Ma? Francesca Mansfield’s Zanclean Flood–Red Sea-hypothese), volgde Pan rechts de Oost-Afrikaanse kusten, ze trokken dan als Australopithecus aan de zuidkant van de Slenk (EARS Malawi-meer enz.) Zuid-Afrika binnen, in parallel met Praeanthropus aan de noordkant: laat-Pliocene graciele africanus (Taung)  vroeg-Pleistocene robuuste robustus.
Pliocene Homo volgde links de Zuid-Aziatische kusten, en drong de pongiden dieper het bos in, en Pongo drong (pas in de ijstijden, na ~2,5 Ma?) erectus dieper het water in, om naar schelpdieren te duiken?

BEWEGENDE CONTINENTEN EN ZICH OPSPLITSENDE MENSAPEN – HYPOTHETISCH EN SCHEMATISCH
VÒOR SPLITSING GEOLOGIE SPLITSING IN WAAR?
Catarrhini ~25 Ma Indië->Z.Azië:archipels Cercopith./Hominoidea Noord-Indië
Hominoidea ~20 Ma Indië onder Azië->Himalaya less/great apes Tethys-oceaan-kusten
great apes ~15 Ma Mesopotamian Seaway closure pongid/hominid Tethys-zee-kusten
hominids ~10 Ma E.Afr. rift ~8 Ma Gorilla/ Homo–Pan Rode Zee
Homo–Pan ~5 Ma Zancle-mega-vloed 5.33 Ma? Homo/Pan Golf van Aden

JTEM is so reasonable wrote:
>

Oh, I forgot; you're retarded.

Why are you here? You demonstrate ZERO interest in these topics, you
post random, irrelevant "cites" you never read and couldn't understand
anyway AND you engage in infantile behavior.

Go away.

If this isn't just your disorder speaking, if you actually
believe you can create a sea and not face global
implications, you need to destroy your computer.

We're always so kind to you, so polite, despite your many obvious
flaws... your many, many flaws... many, many, many, many flaws...

Anyhow, we're always so cordial, pretending not to notice the
drool, never asking about the stains on the front of your pants,
and yet you return our charity with such rudeness! Did they teach
you nothing at that trailer park?

You don't make a good parrot, bird brain.

The gravity of the situation, vis a vis your mental health, is
troubling to say the least.

Look. You're an idiot. There's no denying that.

Lord knows you're not bright, and you're unaware of this fact (despite
the constant reminders).

littor...@gmail.com wrote:
> Op zondag 2 juli 2023 om 07:08:00 UTC+2 schreef Primum Sapienti:
>> snorkel nose wrote:
>>> kudu runner:
>>>> The Zanclean flood involved the Straits of Gibraltar
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanclean_flood
>>>> "The Zanclean flood occurred when the Strait of Gibraltar opened."
>>>> "Red Sea" not mentioned.
>>>
>>> Sigh: again:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanclean_flood
>
>> Red Sea is NOT mentioned, child.
>
> :-DDD
> You're crazy: again:
>
> Sigh: again:

Yes, again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanclean_flood

Red Sea not mentioned. It has no relevance in that event.

Primum Sapienti wrote:

[OCPD]

I should stick to the topic but i do love humiliating you over
your extensive array of crippling mental illnesses.

-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/723706649198690304

Primum Sapienti wrote:

> Red Sea not mentioned.

"It does not appear in scripture!"

Who cares?

Aquatic Ape is right even if the good Doctor paints himself
yellow and runs screaming through the park. Nothing can
change the fact of Aquatic Ape, or make you bright.

-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/723706649198690304

kudu runner:
> Yes, again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanclean_flood
> Red Sea not mentioned. It has no relevance in that event.

Again:
1) Some think it does, e.g. Francesca Mansfield: the Zanclean mega-flood might well have caused the Red Sea to open in the Gulf of Aden.
2) But whether the Red Sea opened exactly 5.55 Ma (Zanclean flood) or somewhere between 6 & 5 Ma, is unimportant to my scenario:
retroviral evidence shows Pliocene human ancestors were NOT in Africa: C.T.Yohn cs 2005 PLoS Biol.3:1-11:
IOW, as show in my book (2022), Pliocene Homo lived along S-Asian coasts, e..g. early-Pleist.H.erectus Mojokerto Java:
google "erectus pachyosteosclerosis": originally they were predom.shallow-diving molluscivores along Ind.Ocean shores:
stone use = hard tools for opening fruits, shells etc., handiness cf. sea-otters.
I see at least 8 *different* (mutually independent!) indications (some stronger than others) that H.erectus frequently collected shellfish:
1) The atypical tooth-wear in archaic Homo was caused by "sand & oral processing of marine mollusks" (Towle cs 2022 doi 10.1002/ajpa.24500).
2) H.erectus fossilized amid shellfish & barnacles, e.g. Mojokerto, Java.
3) Stephen Munro found engravings on a sea-shell made by H.erectus (J.Joordens cs 2015 Nature 518:228-231).
4) Ear-exostoses as found in H.erectus & H.neand. develop after years of irrigation with cold(er) water.
5) Pachy-osteo-sclerosis (erectus>neand.>sapiens) is only seen in slow+shallow-diving tetrapods (de Buffrénil cs 2010 J.Mamm.Evol.17:101-120): H.erectus parietal bone is twice as thick as in gorillas!
6) Drastic brain enlargement (dolphins, pinnipeds...) is facilitated by sea-food, e.g. docosahexaenoic acid DHA in shellfish.
7) Homo’s stone tool use & handedness is typical for molluscivores such as sea-otters.
8) Pleistocene Homo even colonized overseas islands (Flores & later even Luzon), google “coastal dispersal Pleistocene Homo”.
IOW, only incredible imbeciles still deny H.erectus ran after antelopes... :-DDD

Few or no other evolutions are as well-known as our own evolution!

My sceniaro, see my book p.299-300 Hominoid Splittings & Plate Tectonics:
- hominoid/cercopith: India approaching S-Eurasia ?c 30 Ma: island archipels + coastal forests: Catarrhini reaching these became vertically wading-climbing Hominoidea, google "aquarboreal": larger & much wider body, complete tail loss, vertical & central spine, Hominoidea=Latisternalia ("broad-breast-boned ones") etc.
- India further underneath Eurasia split c 20 Ma lesser/gr.apes = E/W of India along N-Tethys Ocean coasts.
- The Mesopotamian Seaway Closure (google) c 15 Ma split hominids/pongids = W/E = Medit.Sea/Ind.Ocean coasts.
- Medit.hominids died out: only the hominids in the incipient Red Sea survived:
- Gorilla 8-7 Ma followed the incipient northern-Rift ->afarensis Lucy cs -> boisei cs,
- when the Red Sea opened into the Gulf of Aden (Zanclean mega-flood 5.33 Ma or not), Pliocene Pan went right: E.Afr.->S-Rift-> africanus Taung -> robustus cs (Pan//Gorilla), Pliocene Homo went left initially (S.Asia): Mojokerto...
- early-Pleist.(more shellfish??) or possibly even earlier, Homo became frequent divers: google "pachyosteosclerosis erectus" -> Pleistocene coastal dispersal.

IOW, you must be an *incredible idiot* to believe that Plio-Pleist.Homo ran over savanna, sweating water+salt...

sorry, I meant 5.33 Ma, of course
> 2) But whether the Red Sea opened exactly 5.55 Ma (Zanclean flood) or somewhere between 6 & 5 Ma, is unimportant to my scenario:
....

Op maandag 24 juli 2023 om 20:28:15 UTC+2 schreef littor...@gmail.com:
> sorry, I meant 5.33 Ma, of course
> > 2) But whether the Red Sea opened exactly 5.55 Ma (Zanclean flood) or somewhere between 6 & 5 Ma, is unimportant to my scenario:
> ...
and even more sorry (becoming old?):
I wrote "IOW, only incredible imbeciles still deny H.erectus ran after antelopes... :-DDD"
should be "only incredible imbeciles still assume H.erectus ran after antelopes" or so.

littor...@gmail.com wrote:

> and even more sorry (becoming old?):
> I wrote "IOW, only

Stop worrying about it.

The word for today is: Disarticulated.

The kudu runners, as you so lovingly refer to them as, are "Disarticulated"
in their position and their thinking.

Aquatic Ape, you -- the good Doctor -- present a cohesive model, one that
not only how key events (and adaptations) happened but WHY they
happened.

But your kudu runners don't have that. They can't think in those terms.
They see and think and "Argue" in disarticulated pieces. So they think
if they obsess over a detail here or a claim there they can take down
the whole house.

They're morons.

-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/723706649198690304

Op dinsdag 25 juli 2023 om 04:46:07 UTC+2 schreef JTEM is so reasonable:
> littor...@gmail.com wrote:

> > and even more sorry (becoming old?):
> > I wrote "IOW, only

> Stop worrying about it.
> The word for today is: Disarticulated.

:-D That doesn't make it better...

> The kudu runners, as you so lovingly refer to them as, are "Disarticulated"
> in their position and their thinking.
> Aquatic Ape, you -- the good Doctor -- present a cohesive model, one that
> not only how key events (and adaptations) happened but WHY they
> happened.
> But your kudu runners don't have that. They can't think in those terms.
> They see and think and "Argue" in disarticulated pieces. So they think
> if they obsess over a detail here or a claim there they can take down
> the whole house.
> They're morons.

No doubt... :-DDD

What we're saying is not difficult at all - even kudu runners can understand:
-Miocene hominoids were already bipedal=vertical in swamp forests: wading upright + climbing arms overhead,
-humans have no Pliocene African retroviral DNA: we were following S.Asian coasts, e.g. early-Pleist.erectus (Mojokerto-Java) fossilized amid shellfish,
-Stephen Munro discovered human-made engravings on such shellfish,
-erectus had very thick (2x gorilla) & very dense bones = *only* seen in shallow-diving tetrapods incl. earliest Cetacea & Pinnipedia,
-erectus brain x2, cf (semi)aquatic mammals: DHA... in aquatic foods,
-island colonizations, intercontinental coastal dispersals, etc.etc.
-what more must be said??

Only *incredible* imbeciles believe their Pleistocene ancestors ran after antelopes... :-DDD