Father Hay claimed Sir William Sinclair, the founder of the Sinclair family, was French and son of Robert de Saint Clair and Eleanor de Dreux, daughter of Robert II de Dreux. How much credence can be given to this claim? The marriage between Robert de Saint Clair and Eleanor de Dreux is well document but was Sir William Sinclair really their son? An argument against it at https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/St_Clair-21 is that was a Scottish Henry de St-Clair who could have been William's father.

A quarta-feira, 1 de junho de 2022 à(s) 02:58:39 UTC+1, Paulo Ricardo Canedo escreveu:
> Father Hay claimed Sir William Sinclair, the founder of the Sinclair family, was French and son of Robert de Saint Clair and Eleanor de Dreux, daughter of Robert II de Dreux. How much credence can be given to this claim? The marriage between Robert de Saint Clair and Eleanor de Dreux is well document but was Sir William Sinclair really their son? An argument against it at https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/St_Clair-21 is that was a Scottish Henry de St-Clair who could have been William's father.
This thread of mine from June 2022 got no answers. I am reviving it in hope of an answer.

On 06-May-23 7:19 AM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> A quarta-feira, 1 de junho de 2022 à(s) 02:58:39 UTC+1, Paulo Ricardo Canedo escreveu:
>> Father Hay claimed Sir William Sinclair, the founder of the Sinclair family, was French and son of Robert de Saint Clair and Eleanor de Dreux, daughter of Robert II de Dreux. How much credence can be given to this claim? The marriage between Robert de Saint Clair and Eleanor de Dreux is well document but was Sir William Sinclair really their son? An argument against it at https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/St_Clair-21 is that was a Scottish Henry de St-Clair who could have been William's father.
> This thread of mine from June 2022 got no answers. I am reviving it in hope of an answer.

According to this
https://sinclairgenealogy.info/scotland/rosslyn-st-clair-family/ the
Sinclairs can be traced in Scotland to the late-12th century, well
before Eleanor of Dreux in 1230 married Robert de Chaumont who was
seigneur of Saint-Clair-sur-Epte - a cadet son of theirs would not very
plausibly have been named William and anyway would more likely have
passed Chaumont as a surname to his descendants than St Clair.

Robert de Chaumont is recorded as having had two sons and a daughter by
his first marriage, to Eleanor of Dreux. The elder son's name is unknown
but was quite probably Jean after his father as the second son was named
Robert after hers. The elder son succeeded as seigneur of Saint-Clair
and named two of his sons Jean, both of whom remained in France. The
younger son Robert was seigneur of Sorel and died without issue in 1260.
No William is evidenced in this cadet branch of the Chaumont family.

Peter Stewart

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A sábado, 6 de maio de 2023 à(s) 00:42:59 UTC+1, Peter Stewart escreveu:
> On 06-May-23 7:19 AM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> > A quarta-feira, 1 de junho de 2022 à(s) 02:58:39 UTC+1, Paulo Ricardo Canedo escreveu:
> >> Father Hay claimed Sir William Sinclair, the founder of the Sinclair family, was French and son of Robert de Saint Clair and Eleanor de Dreux, daughter of Robert II de Dreux. How much credence can be given to this claim? The marriage between Robert de Saint Clair and Eleanor de Dreux is well document but was Sir William Sinclair really their son? An argument against it at https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/St_Clair-21 is that was a Scottish Henry de St-Clair who could have been William's father.
> > This thread of mine from June 2022 got no answers. I am reviving it in hope of an answer.
> According to this
> https://sinclairgenealogy.info/scotland/rosslyn-st-clair-family/ the
> Sinclairs can be traced in Scotland to the late-12th century, well
> before Eleanor of Dreux in 1230 married Robert de Chaumont who was
> seigneur of Saint-Clair-sur-Epte - a cadet son of theirs would not very
> plausibly have been named William and anyway would more likely have
> passed Chaumont as a surname to his descendants than St Clair.
>
> Robert de Chaumont is recorded as having had two sons and a daughter by
> his first marriage, to Eleanor of Dreux. The elder son's name is unknown
> but was quite probably Jean after his father as the second son was named
> Robert after hers. The elder son succeeded as seigneur of Saint-Clair
> and named two of his sons Jean, both of whom remained in France. The
> younger son Robert was seigneur of Sorel and died without issue in 1260.
> No William is evidenced in this cadet branch of the Chaumont family.
>
> Peter Stewart
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
> www.avg.com
Thanks for the reply, Peter.
Still, what do you think of this article http://www.stclairresearch.com/content/Caithness-Dreadon.html?

On Saturday, May 6, 2023 at 7:21:39 PM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:

> Still, what do you think of this article http://www.stclairresearch.com/content/Caithness-Dreadon.html?

I assume you are talking about the argument at the bottom. I generally tend to avoid Sinclair genealogy like the plague, as it is a magnet for all of the worst aspects of medieval pseudo-genealogy, so I can't address many of the specifics, but there seems to be layer upon layer of dubious connections being drawn. It makes reference to a Salian DNA result, but that seems to point to a blog now taken private, inaccessible without invitation. There seems to be some sort of claim that a DNA haplotype can be linked to the Salian Merovingians, which I don't think has any authentic basis. As Peter has pointed out, the suggested linkage of the Scottish Sinclairs with the French Saint-Clair-sur-Epte lords is unfounded. There seems to be an underlying absurd assumption that since the surname of the Scottish family resembles the toponym of a place later held by a French family who never onomastically associated themselves with that place, nonetheless the ancestry of that French family must be relevant. This looks to be of the 'decide who you want to descend from and then produce an ad hoc argument to allow it to be true' type of genealogy.

taf

On 08-May-23 6:31 AM, taf wrote:
> On Saturday, May 6, 2023 at 7:21:39 PM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
>
>> Still, what do you think of this article http://www.stclairresearch.com/content/Caithness-Dreadon.html?
>
> I assume you are talking about the argument at the bottom. I generally tend to avoid Sinclair genealogy like the plague, as it is a magnet for all of the worst aspects of medieval pseudo-genealogy, so I can't address many of the specifics, but there seems to be layer upon layer of dubious connections being drawn. It makes reference to a Salian DNA result, but that seems to point to a blog now taken private, inaccessible without invitation. There seems to be some sort of claim that a DNA haplotype can be linked to the Salian Merovingians, which I don't think has any authentic basis. As Peter has pointed out, the suggested linkage of the Scottish Sinclairs with the French Saint-Clair-sur-Epte lords is unfounded. There seems to be an underlying absurd assumption that since the surname of the Scottish family resembles the toponym of a place later held by a French family who never onomastically associated themselves with that place, nonetheless the ancestry of that French family must be relevant. This looks to be of the 'decide who you want to descend from and then produce an ad hoc argument to allow it to be true' type of genealogy.
Even in my deep ignorance of genetics the stuff about Salian and
Riparian Franks seems fanciful, but the stuff about genealogy is
definitely so. Raoul de Gouy was the step-son of Roger I of Laon who
married Helvis, daughter of Eberhard of Friuli and Gisela of Francia.
Helvis was sister of a son of the latter couple, and a sister of his had
been married to Hucbald of Ostrevant. Helvis is the much likeliest
candidate for this sister. Against this there is insufficient evidence
to warrant an argument that Raoul may have been a son of "Theoderic
Nibelung" - inheritance by agnatic primogeniture was not set in stone in
their time. There is also no sufficient basis for making anyone a
descendant of Raoul's grandson Geoffrey who was living in 988 - various
speculations have attached to this person, but I can recall none weaker
than this muddled attempt to make him into the remote progenitor of the
Chaumont-Guitry family.
If you want people to comment on material found through Googling it
would be helpful to pick out specific bits to save us all from wading
through internet goo, and considerate to offer your own reflections
upfront as well.
Pete Stewart

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On Sunday, May 7, 2023 at 5:40:53 PM UTC-5, Peter Stewart wrote:
> On 08-May-23 6:31 AM, taf wrote:
> > On Saturday, May 6, 2023 at 7:21:39 PM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> >
> >> Still, what do you think of this article http://www.stclairresearch.com/content/Caithness-Dreadon.html?
> >
> > I assume you are talking about the argument at the bottom. I generally tend to avoid Sinclair genealogy like the plague, as it is a magnet for all of the worst aspects of medieval pseudo-genealogy, so I can't address many of the specifics, but there seems to be layer upon layer of dubious connections being drawn. It makes reference to a Salian DNA result, but that seems to point to a blog now taken private, inaccessible without invitation. There seems to be some sort of claim that a DNA haplotype can be linked to the Salian Merovingians, which I don't think has any authentic basis. As Peter has pointed out, the suggested linkage of the Scottish Sinclairs with the French Saint-Clair-sur-Epte lords is unfounded. There seems to be an underlying absurd assumption that since the surname of the Scottish family resembles the toponym of a place later held by a French family who never onomastically associated themselves with that place, nonetheless the ancestry of that French family must be relevant. This looks to be of the 'decide who you want to descend from and then produce an ad hoc argument to allow it to be true' type of genealogy.
> Even in my deep ignorance of genetics the stuff about Salian and
> Riparian Franks seems fanciful, but the stuff about genealogy is
> definitely so. Raoul de Gouy was the step-son of Roger I of Laon who
> married Helvis, daughter of Eberhard of Friuli and Gisela of Francia.
> Helvis was sister of a son of the latter couple, and a sister of his had
> been married to Hucbald of Ostrevant. Helvis is the much likeliest
> candidate for this sister. Against this there is insufficient evidence
> to warrant an argument that Raoul may have been a son of "Theoderic
> Nibelung" - inheritance by agnatic primogeniture was not set in stone in
> their time. There is also no sufficient basis for making anyone a
> descendant of Raoul's grandson Geoffrey who was living in 988 - various
> speculations have attached to this person, but I can recall none weaker
> than this muddled attempt to make him into the remote progenitor of the
> Chaumont-Guitry family.
>
> If you want people to comment on material found through Googling it
> would be helpful to pick out specific bits to save us all from wading
> through internet goo, and considerate to offer your own reflections
> upfront as well.

I have to agree that the supposed "research" in this Sinclair website is dreadful. To get a Y-DNA haplotype for a specific medieval dynasty, you either need to (a) locate very well documented remains from a specific male individual who was a member of that dynasty and recover Y-DNA from those remains which is not so degraded that useful results can be obtained from it; or (b) get modern DNA tests from several well-documented male line descendants of the dynastic founder, with the quality of the results depending highly on the number of testees, the quality of the matches, and how far back the branching goes. To my knowledge, no such haplotype has been identified with reasonable evidence for either the Merovingians or Carolingians, or for the Norman dynasty in England. The well-known Plantagenet/Richard III case suffers from different results for (a) and (b), and the "well-documented" is not airtight for either (a) or (b).

One plausible (but not proven) identification for this Geoffroy (fl. 988) is that he was the same person as Geoffroy, count of Gâtinais (fl. 979-991, prob. d. bef. 997), who married Béatrix de Mâcon and had an only known child Aubry, count of Gâtinais (fl. 1028), who apparently died without issue. So, no apparent descendants in this scenario. After Geoffroy's death, Béatrix de Mâcon married the rather obscure Hugues du Perche, the earliest proven direct male-line ancestor of the Plantagenets. The possible identification of the two Geoffroys is discussed on the "Henry Project" page of Geoffroy of Gâtinais (which has links to the pages of Béatrix de Mâcon and Hugues du Perche), the URL of which is as follows.

https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/geoff003.htm

When I was writing the Henry Project page for Heilwig/Helvis, I don't recall seeing a "Theoderic Nibelung" as a possible husband, although there are so many foolish theories floating out there that it is hard to be aware of all of them. It is hard to tell from the cited website whether the author has a "source" for this, or just made it up himself to force the outcome he wanted. In any case, the URL for Heilwig's page is here.

https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/heilw001.htm

By the way, when I wrote Heilwig's page, I did not have access to one of the most important secondary sources, Paul Hirsch's "Die Erhebung Berengars I.. von Friaul zum König in Italien" (Strassburg, 1910). I just checked, and this is now available for download at Google Books.

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Die_Erhebung_Berengars_I_von_Friaul_zum/GQ1AAQAAMAAJ?hl=en

Stewart Baldwin

On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 9:58:39 PM UTC-4, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> Father Hay claimed Sir William Sinclair, the founder of the Sinclair family, was French and son of Robert de Saint Clair and Eleanor de Dreux, daughter of Robert II de Dreux. How much credence can be given to this claim? The marriage between Robert de Saint Clair and Eleanor de Dreux is well document but was Sir William Sinclair really their son? An argument against it at https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/St_Clair-21 is that was a Scottish Henry de St-Clair who could have been William's father.

Father Hay did not claim that Sir William St. Clair of Rosslyn was the son of Robert de St. Clair and Eleanor de Dreux. He only observed that he found an entry for Robert de St. Clair in the history of the house of Dreux. Father Richard Augustine Hay, Genealogie of the Sainteclaires of Rosslyn, 2002 edition, James Maidment ed., and Brother Robert L.D. Cooper, ed. (Edinburgh: Grand Lodge of Scotland, 2002), p. 34. There is a more recent book on the St. Clairs in Scotland that also looked at primary source documents in which the authors show that William St. Clair of Rosslyn was not the son of Robert and St. Clair and Eleanor de Dreux. Gerald Sinclair and Rondo BB Me, The Enigmatic Sinclairs: The Definitive Guide to the Sinclairs in Scotland, Volume 1 (McMinnville: St. Clair Publications, 2015), p. 224-227. There is some question as to whether William St. Clair of Rosslyn descended from the St. Clairs of Hermandston. Enigmatic Sinclairs, p. 177, 185, 192, 199. In 1162-1190 Richard de Moreville, son of Hugh I de Moreville, gave Herdmanston to Henry de Sancto Claro. Enigmatic Sinclairs, p. 157-169; www.poms.ac..uk/record/source/5959/

Alan de Sancto Claro, son of Henry de Sancto Claro of Herdmanston married Mathilde de Windsor., with her maritagium funded by William de Moreville. www.poms.ac.uk/record/source/2716/ citing K. Stringer, “Acts of Lordship: the records of the lords of Galloway to 1234,” T Brotherstone and D. Ditchburn, eds., Freedom and Authority, Scotland c. 1050 - c. 1650 (East Linton: Tuckwell Press, 1996), p. 223; see also Hay, Genealogie, p. 35.. K. Stringer may have suggested that Matilda was the daughter of Alexander de Windsor and Agnes, daughter of William I de Lancaster. Enigmatic Sinclairs, p. 173-174. That would explain why William de Moreville, cousin to Agnes de Lancaster, funded Mathilda's maritagium.

Can anyone help with Matilda de Windsor, such as any other notice of her? I cannot see where she participated in the inheritance from her brother, Alexander II de Windsor of Cumbria and Berkshire with her possible sister, Christiana de Windsor, wife of Duncan de Lasceles and her other possible sister, wife of Hugh de Hosdenc and mother of Ralph de Hosdeng. In 1200, Duncan de Lasceles and wife, Christiana, offered 10£ to have the land of Boulton in Cumberland that was Christiana’s inheritance from her father since she could not have her reasonable part of the inheritance in Scotland. In the year 1202, Christiana de Wyndleshore granted land in Patestun [Paxton] Scotland adjacent the land of Hugh de Hodene to the Priory of Lanercost for the souls of William the King [of Scotland], of her husband, her children and Walter de Wyndleshore, her brother. In 1203, Christiana de Windlesor gave 200 marks that she would be recognized as heir of her brother, Walter de Windlesor and have seisin of his lands in Essex and Hertfordshire and Yorkshire. In 1206, Ralph de Hosdeng and Duncan de Laceles and wife, Christiana, offered 40 marks in Bedfordshire for the total land of Walter de Windlesor held in capite. After 1203, Ralph de Haudeng granted land in Bekenesfeld [Beaconsfield, Buckinghamshire] that had been given by Lord Walter de Wyndlesore, his avunculus [here, uncle]. In 1209, Duncan de Lacelles and wife, Christiana entered a fine with the Abbot of Geddesworthe for the advowson of Bastorethwait [Bassenthwaite in Cumbria]. In 1210-1212, Ralf de Hodenges held 3 1/3 knights’ fees of the barony of Walter de Wyndersores in Buckinghamshire. In 1211-1212, William Briwere accounted for the marriage of Christiana, daughter of Duncan de Lasceles, with ½ the vill of Burneham, Buckinghamshire, and debts of Walter de Windlesores.

A segunda-feira, 21 de agosto de 2023 à(s) 15:30:50 UTC+1, Robert Goff escreveu:
> On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 9:58:39 PM UTC-4, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> > Father Hay claimed Sir William Sinclair, the founder of the Sinclair family, was French and son of Robert de Saint Clair and Eleanor de Dreux, daughter of Robert II de Dreux. How much credence can be given to this claim? The marriage between Robert de Saint Clair and Eleanor de Dreux is well document but was Sir William Sinclair really their son? An argument against it at https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/St_Clair-21 is that was a Scottish Henry de St-Clair who could have been William's father.
> Father Hay did not claim that Sir William St. Clair of Rosslyn was the son of Robert de St. Clair and Eleanor de Dreux. He only observed that he found an entry for Robert de St. Clair in the history of the house of Dreux. Father Richard Augustine Hay, Genealogie of the Sainteclaires of Rosslyn, 2002 edition, James Maidment ed., and Brother Robert L.D. Cooper, ed. (Edinburgh: Grand Lodge of Scotland, 2002), p. 34. There is a more recent book on the St. Clairs in Scotland that also looked at primary source documents in which the authors show that William St. Clair of Rosslyn was not the son of Robert and St. Clair and Eleanor de Dreux. Gerald Sinclair and Rondo BB Me, The Enigmatic Sinclairs: The Definitive Guide to the Sinclairs in Scotland, Volume 1 (McMinnville: St. Clair Publications, 2015), p. 224-227. There is some question as to whether William St. Clair of Rosslyn descended from the St. Clairs of Hermandston. Enigmatic Sinclairs, p. 177, 185, 192, 199. In 1162-1190 Richard de Moreville, son of Hugh I de Moreville, gave Herdmanston to Henry de Sancto Claro. Enigmatic Sinclairs, p. 157-169; www.poms.ac..uk/record/source/5959/
>
> Alan de Sancto Claro, son of Henry de Sancto Claro of Herdmanston married Mathilde de Windsor., with her maritagium funded by William de Moreville. www.poms.ac.uk/record/source/2716/ citing K. Stringer, “Acts of Lordship: the records of the lords of Galloway to 1234,” T Brotherstone and D. Ditchburn, eds., Freedom and Authority, Scotland c. 1050 - c. 1650 (East Linton: Tuckwell Press, 1996), p. 223; see also Hay, Genealogie, p. 35. K. Stringer may have suggested that Matilda was the daughter of Alexander de Windsor and Agnes, daughter of William I de Lancaster. Enigmatic Sinclairs, p. 173-174. That would explain why William de Moreville, cousin to Agnes de Lancaster, funded Mathilda's maritagium.
>
> Can anyone help with Matilda de Windsor, such as any other notice of her? I cannot see where she participated in the inheritance from her brother, Alexander II de Windsor of Cumbria and Berkshire with her possible sister, Christiana de Windsor, wife of Duncan de Lasceles and her other possible sister, wife of Hugh de Hosdenc and mother of Ralph de Hosdeng. In 1200, Duncan de Lasceles and wife, Christiana, offered 10£ to have the land of Boulton in Cumberland that was Christiana’s inheritance from her father since she could not have her reasonable part of the inheritance in Scotland. In the year 1202, Christiana de Wyndleshore granted land in Patestun [Paxton] Scotland adjacent the land of Hugh de Hodene to the Priory of Lanercost for the souls of William the King [of Scotland], of her husband, her children and Walter de Wyndleshore, her brother. In 1203, Christiana de Windlesor gave 200 marks that she would be recognized as heir of her brother, Walter de Windlesor and have seisin of his lands in Essex and Hertfordshire and Yorkshire. In 1206, Ralph de Hosdeng and Duncan de Laceles and wife, Christiana, offered 40 marks in Bedfordshire for the total land of Walter de Windlesor held in capite. After 1203, Ralph de Haudeng granted land in Bekenesfeld [Beaconsfield, Buckinghamshire] that had been given by Lord Walter de Wyndlesore, his avunculus [here, uncle]. In 1209, Duncan de Lacelles and wife, Christiana entered a fine with the Abbot of Geddesworthe for the advowson of Bastorethwait [Bassenthwaite in Cumbria]. In 1210-1212, Ralf de Hodenges held 3 1/3 knights’ fees of the barony of Walter de Wyndersores in Buckinghamshire. In 1211-1212, William Briwere accounted for the marriage of Christiana, daughter of Duncan de Lasceles, with ½ the vill of Burneham, Buckinghamshire, and debts of Walter de Windlesores.
Dear Robert, how did the authors show that William St. Clair of Rosslyn was not the son of Ronert de St. Clair and Eleanor de Dreux?

On 15-Jan-24 3:22 AM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> A segunda-feira, 21 de agosto de 2023 à(s) 15:30:50 UTC+1, Robert Goff escreveu:
>> On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 9:58:39 PM UTC-4, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
>>> Father Hay claimed Sir William Sinclair, the founder of the Sinclair family, was French and son of Robert de Saint Clair and Eleanor de Dreux, daughter of Robert II de Dreux. How much credence can be given to this claim? The marriage between Robert de Saint Clair and Eleanor de Dreux is well document but was Sir William Sinclair really their son? An argument against it at https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/St_Clair-21 is that was a Scottish Henry de St-Clair who could have been William's father.
>> Father Hay did not claim that Sir William St. Clair of Rosslyn was the son of Robert de St. Clair and Eleanor de Dreux. He only observed that he found an entry for Robert de St. Clair in the history of the house of Dreux. Father Richard Augustine Hay, Genealogie of the Sainteclaires of Rosslyn, 2002 edition, James Maidment ed., and Brother Robert L.D. Cooper, ed. (Edinburgh: Grand Lodge of Scotland, 2002), p. 34. There is a more recent book on the St. Clairs in Scotland that also looked at primary source documents in which the authors show that William St. Clair of Rosslyn was not the son of Robert and St. Clair and Eleanor de Dreux. Gerald Sinclair and Rondo BB Me, The Enigmatic Sinclairs: The Definitive Guide to the Sinclairs in Scotland, Volume 1 (McMinnville: St. Clair Publications, 2015), p. 224-227. There is some question as to whether William St. Clair of Rosslyn descended from the St. Clairs of Hermandston. Enigmatic Sinclairs, p. 177, 185, 192, 199. In 1162-1190 Richard de Moreville, son of Hugh I de Moreville, gave Herdmanston to Henry de Sancto Claro. Enigmatic Sinclairs, p. 157-169; www.poms.ac.uk/record/source/5959/
>>
>> Alan de Sancto Claro, son of Henry de Sancto Claro of Herdmanston married Mathilde de Windsor., with her maritagium funded by William de Moreville. www.poms.ac.uk/record/source/2716/ citing K. Stringer, “Acts of Lordship: the records of the lords of Galloway to 1234,” T Brotherstone and D. Ditchburn, eds., Freedom and Authority, Scotland c. 1050 - c. 1650 (East Linton: Tuckwell Press, 1996), p. 223; see also Hay, Genealogie, p. 35. K. Stringer may have suggested that Matilda was the daughter of Alexander de Windsor and Agnes, daughter of William I de Lancaster. Enigmatic Sinclairs, p. 173-174. That would explain why William de Moreville, cousin to Agnes de Lancaster, funded Mathilda's maritagium.
>>
>> Can anyone help with Matilda de Windsor, such as any other notice of her? I cannot see where she participated in the inheritance from her brother, Alexander II de Windsor of Cumbria and Berkshire with her possible sister, Christiana de Windsor, wife of Duncan de Lasceles and her other possible sister, wife of Hugh de Hosdenc and mother of Ralph de Hosdeng. In 1200, Duncan de Lasceles and wife, Christiana, offered 10£ to have the land of Boulton in Cumberland that was Christiana’s inheritance from her father since she could not have her reasonable part of the inheritance in Scotland. In the year 1202, Christiana de Wyndleshore granted land in Patestun [Paxton] Scotland adjacent the land of Hugh de Hodene to the Priory of Lanercost for the souls of William the King [of Scotland], of her husband, her children and Walter de Wyndleshore, her brother. In 1203, Christiana de Windlesor gave 200 marks that she would be recognized as heir of her brother, Walter de Windlesor and have seisin of his lands in Essex and Hertfordshire and Yorkshire. In 1206, Ralph de Hosdeng and Duncan de Laceles and wife, Christiana, offered 40 marks in Bedfordshire for the total land of Walter de Windlesor held in capite. After 1203, Ralph de Haudeng granted land in Bekenesfeld [Beaconsfield, Buckinghamshire] that had been given by Lord Walter de Wyndlesore, his avunculus [here, uncle]. In 1209, Duncan de Lacelles and wife, Christiana entered a fine with the Abbot of Geddesworthe for the advowson of Bastorethwait [Bassenthwaite in Cumbria]. In 1210-1212, Ralf de Hodenges held 3 1/3 knights’ fees of the barony of Walter de Wyndersores in Buckinghamshire. In 1211-1212, William Briwere accounted for the marriage of Christiana, daughter of Duncan de Lasceles, with ½ the vill of Burneham, Buckinghamshire, and debts of Walter de Windlesores.
> Dear Robert, how did the authors show that William St. Clair of Rosslyn was not the son of Ronert de St. Clair and Eleanor de Dreux?
I don't know how the authors cited above showed this, but it is easily
proved.
Eleanor de Dreux was married to her first husband by July 1206, so
evidently born by ca 1194. She was married to her second husband, Robert
de Saint-Clair, in 1234 or 1235, aged around 40. Not surprisingly, they
had just two recorded children: a son, also named Robert, who was
seigneur of Sorel and died without issue before his father, and a
daughter named Eleanor who contested with their father for the
inheritance of Sorel after her brother's death. The father was
successful, and there was clearly no William in the family to offer a
third claim. The record of this can be found here (p. 494 no. 13):
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=yqE4AQAAMAAJ&pg=RA2-PA494.
Peter Stewart

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On 15-Jan-24 2:04 PM, Peter Stewart wrote:
> On 15-Jan-24 3:22 AM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
>> A segunda-feira, 21 de agosto de 2023 à(s) 15:30:50 UTC+1, Robert Goff
>> escreveu:
>>> On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 9:58:39 PM UTC-4, Paulo Ricardo Canedo
>>> wrote:
>>>> Father Hay claimed Sir William Sinclair, the founder of the Sinclair
>>>> family, was French and son of Robert de Saint Clair and Eleanor de
>>>> Dreux, daughter of Robert II de Dreux. How much credence can be
>>>> given to this claim? The marriage between Robert de Saint Clair and
>>>> Eleanor de Dreux is well document but was Sir William Sinclair
>>>> really their son? An argument against it at
>>>> https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/St_Clair-21 is that was a Scottish
>>>> Henry de St-Clair who could have been William's father.
>>> Father Hay did not claim that Sir William St. Clair of Rosslyn was
>>> the son of Robert de St. Clair and Eleanor de Dreux. He only observed
>>> that he found an entry for Robert de St. Clair in the history of the
>>> house of Dreux. Father Richard Augustine Hay, Genealogie of the
>>> Sainteclaires of Rosslyn, 2002 edition, James Maidment ed., and
>>> Brother Robert L.D. Cooper, ed. (Edinburgh: Grand Lodge of Scotland,
>>> 2002), p. 34. There is a more recent book on the St. Clairs in
>>> Scotland that also looked at primary source documents in which the
>>> authors show that William St. Clair of Rosslyn was not the son of
>>> Robert and St. Clair and Eleanor de Dreux. Gerald Sinclair and Rondo
>>> BB Me, The Enigmatic Sinclairs: The Definitive Guide to the Sinclairs
>>> in Scotland, Volume 1 (McMinnville: St. Clair Publications, 2015), p.
>>> 224-227. There is some question as to whether William St. Clair of
>>> Rosslyn descended from the St. Clairs of Hermandston. Enigmatic
>>> Sinclairs, p. 177, 185, 192, 199. In 1162-1190 Richard de Moreville,
>>> son of Hugh I de Moreville, gave Herdmanston to Henry de Sancto
>>> Claro. Enigmatic Sinclairs, p. 157-169;
>>> www.poms.ac.uk/record/source/5959/
>>>
>>> Alan de Sancto Claro, son of Henry de Sancto Claro of Herdmanston
>>> married Mathilde de Windsor., with her maritagium funded by William
>>> de Moreville. www.poms.ac.uk/record/source/2716/ citing K. Stringer,
>>> “Acts of Lordship: the records of the lords of Galloway to 1234,” T
>>> Brotherstone and D. Ditchburn, eds., Freedom and Authority, Scotland
>>> c. 1050 - c. 1650 (East Linton: Tuckwell Press, 1996), p. 223; see
>>> also Hay, Genealogie, p. 35. K. Stringer may have suggested that
>>> Matilda was the daughter of Alexander de Windsor and Agnes, daughter
>>> of William I de Lancaster. Enigmatic Sinclairs, p. 173-174. That
>>> would explain why William de Moreville, cousin to Agnes de Lancaster,
>>> funded Mathilda's maritagium.
>>>
>>> Can anyone help with Matilda de Windsor, such as any other notice of
>>> her? I cannot see where she participated in the inheritance from her
>>> brother, Alexander II de Windsor of Cumbria and Berkshire with her
>>> possible sister, Christiana de Windsor, wife of Duncan de Lasceles
>>> and her other possible sister, wife of Hugh de Hosdenc and mother of
>>> Ralph de Hosdeng. In 1200, Duncan de Lasceles and wife, Christiana,
>>> offered 10£ to have the land of Boulton in Cumberland that was
>>> Christiana’s inheritance from her father since she could not have her
>>> reasonable part of the inheritance in Scotland. In the year 1202,
>>> Christiana de Wyndleshore granted land in Patestun [Paxton] Scotland
>>> adjacent the land of Hugh de Hodene to the Priory of Lanercost for
>>> the souls of William the King [of Scotland], of her husband, her
>>> children and Walter de Wyndleshore, her brother. In 1203, Christiana
>>> de Windlesor gave 200 marks that she would be recognized as heir of
>>> her brother, Walter de Windlesor and have seisin of his lands in
>>> Essex and Hertfordshire and Yorkshire. In 1206, Ralph de Hosdeng and
>>> Duncan de Laceles and wife, Christiana, offered 40 marks in
>>> Bedfordshire for the total land of Walter de Windlesor held in
>>> capite. After 1203, Ralph de Haudeng granted land in Bekenesfeld
>>> [Beaconsfield, Buckinghamshire] that had been given by Lord Walter de
>>> Wyndlesore, his avunculus [here, uncle]. In 1209, Duncan de Lacelles
>>> and wife, Christiana entered a fine with the Abbot of Geddesworthe
>>> for the advowson of Bastorethwait [Bassenthwaite in Cumbria]. In
>>> 1210-1212, Ralf de Hodenges held 3 1/3 knights’ fees of the barony of
>>> Walter de Wyndersores in Buckinghamshire. In 1211-1212, William
>>> Briwere accounted for the marriage of Christiana, daughter of Duncan
>>> de Lasceles, with ½ the vill of Burneham, Buckinghamshire, and debts
>>> of Walter de Windlesores.
>> Dear Robert, how did the authors show that William St. Clair of
>> Rosslyn was not the son of Ronert de St. Clair and Eleanor de Dreux?
>
> I don't know how the authors cited above showed this, but it is easily
> proved.
>
> Eleanor de Dreux was married to her first husband by July 1206, so
> evidently born by ca 1194. She was married to her second husband, Robert
> de Saint-Clair, in 1234 or 1235, aged around 40. Not surprisingly, they
> had just two recorded children: a son, also named Robert, who was
> seigneur of Sorel and died without issue before his father, and a
> daughter named Eleanor who contested with their father for the
> inheritance of Sorel after her brother's death. The father was
> successful, and there was clearly no William in the family to offer a
> third claim. The record of this can be found here (p. 494 no. 13):
> https://books.google.com.au/books?id=yqE4AQAAMAAJ&pg=RA2-PA494.

I should add that the younger Robert, seigneur of Sorel, and his sister
Eleanor had two paternal half-brothers by an unknown first wife of
Robert of Saint-Clair, named Jean (whose descendants were seigneurs of
Saint-Clair) and Henri (who became a monk at Saint-Wandrille). By the
first marriage of Eleanor of Dreux they also had a maternal half-brother
named Jean (seigneur of Châteauneuf-en-Thimerais, who died without
issue) and five half-sisters.

Peter Stewart

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Peter Stewart wrote:

> On 15-Jan-24 2:04 PM, Peter Stewart wrote:
>> On 15-Jan-24 3:22 AM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
>>> A segunda-feira, 21 de agosto de 2023 à(s) 15:30:50 UTC+1, Robert Goff
>>> escreveu:
>>>> On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 9:58:39 PM UTC-4, Paulo Ricardo Canedo
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Father Hay claimed Sir William Sinclair, the founder of the Sinclair
>>>>> family, was French and son of Robert de Saint Clair and Eleanor de
>>>>> Dreux, daughter of Robert II de Dreux. How much credence can be
>>>>> given to this claim? The marriage between Robert de Saint Clair and
>>>>> Eleanor de Dreux is well document but was Sir William Sinclair
>>>>> really their son? An argument against it at
>>>>> https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/St_Clair-21 is that was a Scottish
>>>>> Henry de St-Clair who could have been William's father.
>>>> Father Hay did not claim that Sir William St. Clair of Rosslyn was
>>>> the son of Robert de St. Clair and Eleanor de Dreux. He only observed
>>>> that he found an entry for Robert de St. Clair in the history of the
>>>> house of Dreux. Father Richard Augustine Hay, Genealogie of the
>>>> Sainteclaires of Rosslyn, 2002 edition, James Maidment ed., and
>>>> Brother Robert L.D. Cooper, ed. (Edinburgh: Grand Lodge of Scotland,
>>>> 2002), p. 34. There is a more recent book on the St. Clairs in
>>>> Scotland that also looked at primary source documents in which the
>>>> authors show that William St. Clair of Rosslyn was not the son of
>>>> Robert and St. Clair and Eleanor de Dreux. Gerald Sinclair and Rondo
>>>> BB Me, The Enigmatic Sinclairs: The Definitive Guide to the Sinclairs
>>>> in Scotland, Volume 1 (McMinnville: St. Clair Publications, 2015), p.
>>>> 224-227. There is some question as to whether William St. Clair of
>>>> Rosslyn descended from the St. Clairs of Hermandston. Enigmatic
>>>> Sinclairs, p. 177, 185, 192, 199. In 1162-1190 Richard de Moreville,
>>>> son of Hugh I de Moreville, gave Herdmanston to Henry de Sancto
>>>> Claro. Enigmatic Sinclairs, p. 157-169;
>>>> www.poms.ac.uk/record/source/5959/
>>>>
>>>> Alan de Sancto Claro, son of Henry de Sancto Claro of Herdmanston
>>>> married Mathilde de Windsor., with her maritagium funded by William
>>>> de Moreville. www.poms.ac.uk/record/source/2716/ citing K. Stringer,
>>>> “Acts of Lordship: the records of the lords of Galloway to 1234,” T
>>>> Brotherstone and D. Ditchburn, eds., Freedom and Authority, Scotland
>>>> c. 1050 - c. 1650 (East Linton: Tuckwell Press, 1996), p. 223; see
>>>> also Hay, Genealogie, p. 35. K. Stringer may have suggested that
>>>> Matilda was the daughter of Alexander de Windsor and Agnes, daughter
>>>> of William I de Lancaster. Enigmatic Sinclairs, p. 173-174. That
>>>> would explain why William de Moreville, cousin to Agnes de Lancaster,
>>>> funded Mathilda's maritagium.
>>>>
>>>> Can anyone help with Matilda de Windsor, such as any other notice of
>>>> her? I cannot see where she participated in the inheritance from her
>>>> brother, Alexander II de Windsor of Cumbria and Berkshire with her
>>>> possible sister, Christiana de Windsor, wife of Duncan de Lasceles
>>>> and her other possible sister, wife of Hugh de Hosdenc and mother of
>>>> Ralph de Hosdeng. In 1200, Duncan de Lasceles and wife, Christiana,
>>>> offered 10£ to have the land of Boulton in Cumberland that was
>>>> Christiana’s inheritance from her father since she could not have her
>>>> reasonable part of the inheritance in Scotland. In the year 1202,
>>>> Christiana de Wyndleshore granted land in Patestun [Paxton] Scotland
>>>> adjacent the land of Hugh de Hodene to the Priory of Lanercost for
>>>> the souls of William the King [of Scotland], of her husband, her
>>>> children and Walter de Wyndleshore, her brother. In 1203, Christiana
>>>> de Windlesor gave 200 marks that she would be recognized as heir of
>>>> her brother, Walter de Windlesor and have seisin of his lands in
>>>> Essex and Hertfordshire and Yorkshire. In 1206, Ralph de Hosdeng and
>>>> Duncan de Laceles and wife, Christiana, offered 40 marks in
>>>> Bedfordshire for the total land of Walter de Windlesor held in
>>>> capite. After 1203, Ralph de Haudeng granted land in Bekenesfeld
>>>> [Beaconsfield, Buckinghamshire] that had been given by Lord Walter de
>>>> Wyndlesore, his avunculus [here, uncle]. In 1209, Duncan de Lacelles
>>>> and wife, Christiana entered a fine with the Abbot of Geddesworthe
>>>> for the advowson of Bastorethwait [Bassenthwaite in Cumbria]. In
>>>> 1210-1212, Ralf de Hodenges held 3 1/3 knights’ fees of the barony of
>>>> Walter de Wyndersores in Buckinghamshire. In 1211-1212, William
>>>> Briwere accounted for the marriage of Christiana, daughter of Duncan
>>>> de Lasceles, with ½ the vill of Burneham, Buckinghamshire, and debts
>>>> of Walter de Windlesores.
>>> Dear Robert, how did the authors show that William St. Clair of
>>> Rosslyn was not the son of Ronert de St. Clair and Eleanor de Dreux?
>>
>> I don't know how the authors cited above showed this, but it is easily
>> proved.
>>
>> Eleanor de Dreux was married to her first husband by July 1206, so
>> evidently born by ca 1194. She was married to her second husband, Robert
>> de Saint-Clair, in 1234 or 1235, aged around 40. Not surprisingly, they
>> had just two recorded children: a son, also named Robert, who was
>> seigneur of Sorel and died without issue before his father, and a
>> daughter named Eleanor who contested with their father for the
>> inheritance of Sorel after her brother's death. The father was
>> successful, and there was clearly no William in the family to offer a
>> third claim. The record of this can be found here (p. 494 no. 13):
>> https://books.google.com.au/books?id=yqE4AQAAMAAJ&pg=RA2-PA494.

> I should add that the younger Robert, seigneur of Sorel, and his sister
> Eleanor had two paternal half-brothers by an unknown first wife of
> Robert of Saint-Clair, named Jean (whose descendants were seigneurs of
> Saint-Clair) and Henri (who became a monk at Saint-Wandrille). By the
> first marriage of Eleanor of Dreux they also had a maternal half-brother
> named Jean (seigneur of Châteauneuf-en-Thimerais, who died without
> issue) and five half-sisters.

I dont know how accurate this page is, but it seems that the St.Clairs
of Hermanston are more likely to have been the ancestors of William
than some remote Normandy noble with no obvious connection to Scotland.

https://sinclairgenealogy.info/scotland/st-clair-of-herdmanston/

mike

On Monday, January 15, 2024 at 2:40:48 PM UTC-8, miked wrote:

> I dont know how accurate this page is, but it seems that the St.Clairs
> of Hermanston are more likely to have been the ancestors of William
> than some remote Normandy noble with no obvious connection to Scotland.

I found a streamed interview with the authors of The Enigmatic Sinclairs. I have not seen the work itself, but in general I was impressed by their assiduous insistence, as related in the interview, on using only primary evidence for all of their conclusions, none of the past family mythology (or the newer Dan Brown nonsense) and hence their unwillingness to make any definitive pronouncement on this issue, but you could tell from their tone that one of them thought this highly likely and the other was at least open to a Hermanston derivation.

taf

On Monday, January 15, 2024 at 10:29:19 PM UTC-5, taf wrote:
> On Monday, January 15, 2024 at 2:40:48 PM UTC-8, miked wrote:
>
> > I dont know how accurate this page is, but it seems that the St.Clairs
> > of Hermanston are more likely to have been the ancestors of William
> > than some remote Normandy noble with no obvious connection to Scotland.
> I found a streamed interview with the authors of The Enigmatic Sinclairs. I have not seen the work itself, but in general I was impressed by their assiduous insistence, as related in the interview, on using only primary evidence for all of their conclusions, none of the past family mythology (or the newer Dan Brown nonsense) and hence their unwillingness to make any definitive pronouncement on this issue, but you could tell from their tone that one of them thought this highly likely and the other was at least open to a Hermanston derivation.
>
> taf

William de Sancto Claro of Rosslyn did not appear in Scottish records until 1261. His parents are unknown. Sinclair, Enigmatic Sinclairs, p. 193-194. However, he was associated with the court party of Sir Robert Sinclair, likely of Herdmanston. Sinclair, Enigmatic Sinclairs, p. 177, 193. This leads to the most likely theory that William de Sancto Claro of Rosslyn was a member of the St. Clairs of Herdmanston.

The seal of William de St. Clair of Rosslyn contained three boars’ heads in allusion to another coat of arms of St. Clare. Sinclair, Enigmatic Sinclairs, p. 199. W. De G. Birch, Catalogue of seals in the Department of Manuscripts in the British Museum, vol. 3 (London: British Museum, 1894), p. 472. In 1296, King Edward I of England assembled the church prelates, nobility, knights, and important men of Scotland to swear fealty to him. Those present included John de Seintclerk [St. Clair] of Hirdmanstone [Herdmanston] who swore fealty for his lands in Berwickshire. Also present was another St. Clair of Berwickshire, Gregory de Seint Cler, whose seal depicted three boars’ heads. Sinclair, Enigmatic Sinclairs, p. 192; Calendar of Documents in Scotland, vol, 2, p. 203. Gregory may have been the son of William de Sancto Claro of Rosslyn. If so, then the St. Clairs of Rosslyn were associated with the St. Clairs of Herdmanston in Berwickshire, creating the impression that the Rosslyn St. Clairs descended from the Herdmanston St. Clairs.

Gregory de St. Clair of Berwickshire and William de St. Clair of Rosslyn used the device of 3 boars heads in their arms in allusion to another St. Clair coat of arms. The alluded to St. Clair coat of arms mat have been that of William de Seynclere contained in the Herald’s roll, which is dated to the reign of King Henry III or beginning of King Edward I (1272).The Genealogist, n.s., vol. 5, p. (1888), p. 179. That coat of arms was described as “gules (red) a fess (horizontal band) argent (silver) between three boars heads, or (gold).” The English coat of arms with 3 boars heads was likely that of the St. Clairs of Danbury, Essex, with the representative being William de Sancto Claro of Danbury, sheriff of Essex and steward of Queen Eleanor. Patent Rolls 1281-1292, p. 210. An online source identifies him as William de Sancto Claro of Merston and Higham, Kent which were held by William of Danbury. https://wappenwiki.org/index.php/Herald%27s_Roll_(part_III). William de Sancto Claro of Rosslyn probably descended from the St. Clairs of Herdmanston or their cousins in England. The Herdmanston St. Clairs and the St. Clairs of Danbury Essex descended from the same family that held St. Clair-sur-Elle in Normandy.

On 1/15/2024 7:29 PM, taf wrote:
> On Monday, January 15, 2024 at 2:40:48 PM UTC-8, miked wrote:
>
>> I dont know how accurate this page is, but it seems that the St.Clairs
>> of Hermanston are more likely to have been the ancestors of William
>> than some remote Normandy noble with no obvious connection to Scotland.
>
> I found a streamed interview with the authors of The Enigmatic Sinclairs. I have not seen the work itself, but in general I was impressed by their assiduous insistence, as related in the interview, on using only primary evidence for all of their conclusions, none of the past family mythology (or the newer Dan Brown nonsense) and hence their unwillingness to make any definitive pronouncement on this issue, but you could tell from their tone that one of them thought this highly likely and the other was at least open to a Hermanston derivation.
>
> taf

In case anyone is interested, here is the blog/interview.

taf

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On 1/26/2024 2:30 PM, taf wrote:
> On 1/15/2024 7:29 PM, taf wrote:
>> On Monday, January 15, 2024 at 2:40:48 PM UTC-8, miked wrote:
>>
>>> I dont know how accurate this page is, but it seems that the St.Clairs
>>> of Hermanston are more likely to have been the ancestors of William
>>> than some remote Normandy noble with no obvious connection to Scotland.
>>
>> I found a streamed interview with the authors of The Enigmatic
>> Sinclairs. I have not seen the work itself, but in general I was
>> impressed by their assiduous insistence, as related in the interview,
>> on using only primary evidence for all of their conclusions, none of
>> the past family mythology (or the newer Dan Brown nonsense) and hence
>> their unwillingness to make any definitive pronouncement on this
>> issue, but you could tell from their tone that one of them thought
>> this highly likely and the other was at least open to a Hermanston
>> derivation.
>>
>> taf
>
> In case anyone is interested, here is the blog/interview.
>
Well, that was a fail. Let's try that again:
https://www.blogtalkradio.com/stevestclair/2015/11/27/the-enigmatic-sinclairs

taf

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On Friday, January 26, 2024 at 5:32:22 PM UTC-5, taf wrote:
> On 1/26/2024 2:30 PM, taf wrote:
> > On 1/15/2024 7:29 PM, taf wrote:
> >> On Monday, January 15, 2024 at 2:40:48 PM UTC-8, miked wrote:
> >>
> >>> I dont know how accurate this page is, but it seems that the St.Clairs
> >>> of Hermanston are more likely to have been the ancestors of William
> >>> than some remote Normandy noble with no obvious connection to Scotland.
> >>
> >> I found a streamed interview with the authors of The Enigmatic
> >> Sinclairs. I have not seen the work itself, but in general I was
> >> impressed by their assiduous insistence, as related in the interview,
> >> on using only primary evidence for all of their conclusions, none of
> >> the past family mythology (or the newer Dan Brown nonsense) and hence
> >> their unwillingness to make any definitive pronouncement on this
> >> issue, but you could tell from their tone that one of them thought
> >> this highly likely and the other was at least open to a Hermanston
> >> derivation.
> >>
> >> taf
> >
> > In case anyone is interested, here is the blog/interview.
> >
> Well, that was a fail. Let's try that again:
> https://www.blogtalkradio.com/stevestclair/2015/11/27/the-enigmatic-sinclairs
> taf
>
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
> www.avg.com

The authors of the Enigmatic Sinclairs said that the origins of Henry St. Clair of Herdmanston were likely in England and that he was probably related to the family of William de Sancto Claro and his brother Hamon de Sancto Claro, tenants of Eudo Dapifer. According to my research, Henry de Sancto Claro of Herdmanston was likely the younger brother of Hubert II de Sancto Claro of Walkern, and son of Hamon de Sancto Claro. Hubert II de Sancto Claro mentioned his brother Henry in a couple charters, one to Clerkenwell and one to the Hospitallers. Michael Gervers, The Hospitaller Cartulary in the British Library (Toronto: Pontifical Institute of Medieval Studies, 1981), p.. 259. W.O. Hassall, Cartulary of St. Mary, Clerkenwell (London, Royal Historical Society, 1949), p. 125-126. William and Hamon de Sancto Claro are briefly mentioned in The Origins of Some Anglo-Norman Families by Lewis Christopher Loyd and discussed in Farrer's Honors and Knights Fees, vol. 3. More recently, they (and their succession to the lands of Hubert I de Sancto Claro) were discussed in Medieval Walkern and Magna Carta by Peter Sinclair (2013). I wrote a 2021 paper published in Foundations, volume 13 (Foundation for Medieval Genealogy) on the brothers William and Hamon de Sancto Claro and their likely predecessors in England and at Saint-Clair-sur-Elle in Normandy (Hubert I de Sancto Claro and Ralph son of William of Little Horsted, Sussex).