Jane Skelton

• 1871 (as Jane Gibson, wife of Walter, in Sheffield): 32, POB
Gibraltar Spain
• 1861 (ditto [Walter is on previous page]): 22, POB Gibralter Spain
• 1857Q4 Walter Gibson=Jane Skelton (Sheffield, 9c 299)
• 1851 Jane Skelton, 12, POB Gibralter, with father William (42, POB
Sheffield) [and his wife Cordelia 2x]
• 1850Q1 William Skelton=Cordelia Eliza Courtney Thomas (so not Jane's
mother)

Any suggestions on how I can find anything on Jane (e. g. her mother's
name/POB/DOB)? I'm not very familiar with Gibraltar records.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Find out what works. Then do it. That's my system. I'm always surprised it
isn't more popular. - Scott Adams, 2015

On Thu, 31 Aug 2023 20:28:09 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver"
<G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

>Jane Skelton
>
>• 1871 (as Jane Gibson, wife of Walter, in Sheffield): 32, POB
>Gibraltar Spain
>• 1861 (ditto [Walter is on previous page]): 22, POB Gibralter Spain
>• 1857Q4 Walter Gibson=Jane Skelton (Sheffield, 9c 299)
>• 1851 Jane Skelton, 12, POB Gibralter, with father William (42, POB
>Sheffield) [and his wife Cordelia 2x]
>• 1850Q1 William Skelton=Cordelia Eliza Courtney Thomas (so not Jane's
>mother)
>
>Any suggestions on how I can find anything on Jane (e. g. her mother's
>name/POB/DOB)? I'm not very familiar with Gibraltar records.
>
According to the GRO online index entry for Jane's brother Edwin,
their mother's surname is THOMAS.

Their parents were married in East Stonehouse registration district in
Devon -

Name Cordelia Eliza Courtney Thomas
Registration Year 1850 [1850]
Registration Quarter Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration district East Stonehouse
Inferred County Devon
Volume 9
Page 351
Records on Page (Name)
{...........}
William Skelton

Ancestry has a baptism entry for Cordelia :-
Name Cordelia Eliza Courteney Thomas
Birth 13 Apr 1825
Baptism 6 Jun 1825 Morrice St
-Wesleyan,Devonport,Devon,England
Father William Thomas
Mother Mary Nathaniel

rOn Sun, 03 Sep 2023 23:28:29 +0100, Charles Ellson
<charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 31 Aug 2023 20:28:09 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver"
><G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>
>>Jane Skelton
>>
>>• 1871 (as Jane Gibson, wife of Walter, in Sheffield): 32, POB
>>Gibraltar Spain
>>• 1861 (ditto [Walter is on previous page]): 22, POB Gibralter Spain
>>• 1857Q4 Walter Gibson=Jane Skelton (Sheffield, 9c 299)
>>• 1851 Jane Skelton, 12, POB Gibralter, with father William (42, POB
>>Sheffield) [and his wife Cordelia 2x]
>>• 1850Q1 William Skelton=Cordelia Eliza Courtney Thomas (so not Jane's
>>mother)
>>
>>Any suggestions on how I can find anything on Jane (e. g. her mother's
>>name/POB/DOB)? I'm not very familiar with Gibraltar records.
>>
>According to the GRO online index entry for Jane's brother Edwin,
>their mother's surname is THOMAS.
>
>Their parents were married in East Stonehouse registration district in
>Devon -
>
>Name Cordelia Eliza Courtney Thomas
>Registration Year 1850 [1850]
>Registration Quarter Jan-Feb-Mar
>Registration district East Stonehouse
>Inferred County Devon
>Volume 9
>Page 351
>Records on Page (Name)
>{...........}
>William Skelton
>
>
>Ancestry has a baptism entry for Cordelia :-
>Name Cordelia Eliza Courteney Thomas
>Birth 13 Apr 1825
>Baptism 6 Jun 1825 Morrice St
>-Wesleyan,Devonport,Devon,England
>Father William Thomas
>Mother Mary Nathaniel
>
From the other entries added, it looks like Nathaniel is her middle
name and her surname is actually MOORSAM.

In message <746afihth85s6avndmmlecttd8reo05hsa@4ax.com> at Mon, 4 Sep
2023 00:40:15, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> writes
>rOn Sun, 03 Sep 2023 23:28:29 +0100, Charles Ellson
><charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 31 Aug 2023 20:28:09 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver"
>><G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>Jane Skelton
>>>
>>>• 1871 (as Jane Gibson, wife of Walter, in Sheffield): 32, POB
>>>Gibraltar Spain
>>>• 1861 (ditto [Walter is on previous page]): 22, POB Gibralter Spain
>>>• 1857Q4 Walter Gibson=Jane Skelton (Sheffield, 9c 299)
>>>• 1851 Jane Skelton, 12, POB Gibralter, with father William (42, POB
>>>Sheffield) [and his wife Cordelia 2x]
>>>• 1850Q1 William Skelton=Cordelia Eliza Courtney Thomas (so not Jane's
>>>mother)
>>>
>>>Any suggestions on how I can find anything on Jane (e. g. her mother's
>>>name/POB/DOB)? I'm not very familiar with Gibraltar records.
>>>
>>According to the GRO online index entry for Jane's brother Edwin,
>>their mother's surname is THOMAS.
>>
>>Their parents were married in East Stonehouse registration district in
>>Devon -
>>
>>Name Cordelia Eliza Courtney Thomas
>>Registration Year 1850 [1850]
>>Registration Quarter Jan-Feb-Mar
>>Registration district East Stonehouse
>>Inferred County Devon
>>Volume 9
>>Page 351
>>Records on Page (Name)
>>{...........}
>>William Skelton
>>
>>
>>Ancestry has a baptism entry for Cordelia :-
>>Name Cordelia Eliza Courteney Thomas
>>Birth 13 Apr 1825
>>Baptism 6 Jun 1825 Morrice St
>>-Wesleyan,Devonport,Devon,England
>>Father William Thomas
>>Mother Mary Nathaniel
>>
>From the other entries added, it looks like Nathaniel is her middle
>name and her surname is actually MOORSAM.

Sorry, who is "her" here - Cordelia? Jane? And Nathaniel for a her?
(And FreeBMD has no marriages of anyone called Moorsam [with nothing
else specified].)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Science isn't about being right every time, or even most of the time. It is
about being more right over time and fixing what it got wrong.
- Scott Adams, 2015-2-2

In message <dlv9fip6ajvruqk8gjnf0qtdjsbeft34kj@4ax.com> at Sun, 3 Sep
2023 23:28:29, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> writes
>On Thu, 31 Aug 2023 20:28:09 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver"
><G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>
>>Jane Skelton
>>
>>• 1871 (as Jane Gibson, wife of Walter, in Sheffield): 32, POB
>>Gibraltar Spain
>>• 1861 (ditto [Walter is on previous page]): 22, POB Gibralter Spain
>>• 1857Q4 Walter Gibson=Jane Skelton (Sheffield, 9c 299)
>>• 1851 Jane Skelton, 12, POB Gibralter, with father William (42, POB
>>Sheffield) [and his wife Cordelia 2x]
>>• 1850Q1 William Skelton=Cordelia Eliza Courtney Thomas (so not Jane's
>>mother)
>>
>>Any suggestions on how I can find anything on Jane (e. g. her mother's
>>name/POB/DOB)? I'm not very familiar with Gibraltar records.
>>
>According to the GRO online index entry for Jane's brother Edwin,
>their mother's surname is THOMAS.

Unfortunately, I think that applies to Edwin, but not Jane.
>
>Their parents were married in East Stonehouse registration district in
>Devon -
>
>Name Cordelia Eliza Courtney Thomas
>Registration Year 1850 [1850]
>Registration Quarter Jan-Feb-Mar
>Registration district East Stonehouse
>Inferred County Devon
>Volume 9
>Page 351
>Records on Page (Name)
>{...........}
>William Skelton
>
From the 1851: William 42, Cordelia 2? (23 I think), Ann 17, Jane 12,
WilliamC ? Mo.

So I'm pretty certain Cordelia is William's second wife; a marriage in
1850Q1 would line up with a child of a few months in the 1851, but the
other children are probably not hers - Jane just possibly, if the 23 was
really 25 say, but definitely not Ann. (I did try to find if an ?
Skelton had died before the Cordelia marriage, but without success - I
got the impression William moved around a lot, I think from where the
children were born - Ann Glasgow, Jane Gibraltar, WilliamC Sheffield, so
I am not surprised I couldn't find it. Assuming she _did_ die rather
than he just deciding to add a new wife!)
>
>Ancestry has a baptism entry for Cordelia :-
>Name Cordelia Eliza Courteney Thomas
>Birth 13 Apr 1825
So unlikely to have had a daughter who was 12 in 1851 - not impossible,
but unlikely - but not the 17 one, so probably not the 12 one either.
>Baptism 6 Jun 1825 Morrice St
>-Wesleyan,Devonport,Devon,England
That agrees with her POB in the 1851, so you've found the right person -
for the second wife, that is.
>Father William Thomas
>Mother Mary Nathaniel

Thanks for looking though!
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Tact is the ability to describe others as they see themselves. -Abraham
Lincoln, 16th president of the U.S (1809-1865)

On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 02:07:37 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk>
wrote:

>In message <746afihth85s6avndmmlecttd8reo05hsa@4ax.com> at Mon, 4 Sep
>2023 00:40:15, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> writes
>>rOn Sun, 03 Sep 2023 23:28:29 +0100, Charles Ellson
>><charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 31 Aug 2023 20:28:09 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver"
>>><G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Jane Skelton
>>>>
>>>>• 1871 (as Jane Gibson, wife of Walter, in Sheffield): 32, POB
>>>>Gibraltar Spain
>>>>• 1861 (ditto [Walter is on previous page]): 22, POB Gibralter Spain
>>>>• 1857Q4 Walter Gibson=Jane Skelton (Sheffield, 9c 299)
>>>>• 1851 Jane Skelton, 12, POB Gibralter, with father William (42, POB
>>>>Sheffield) [and his wife Cordelia 2x]
>>>>• 1850Q1 William Skelton=Cordelia Eliza Courtney Thomas (so not Jane's
>>>>mother)
>>>>
>>>>Any suggestions on how I can find anything on Jane (e. g. her mother's
>>>>name/POB/DOB)? I'm not very familiar with Gibraltar records.
>>>>
>>>According to the GRO online index entry for Jane's brother Edwin,
>>>their mother's surname is THOMAS.
>>>
>>>Their parents were married in East Stonehouse registration district in
>>>Devon -
>>>
>>>Name Cordelia Eliza Courtney Thomas
>>>Registration Year 1850 [1850]
>>>Registration Quarter Jan-Feb-Mar
>>>Registration district East Stonehouse
>>>Inferred County Devon
>>>Volume 9
>>>Page 351
>>>Records on Page (Name)
>>>{...........}
>>>William Skelton
>>>
>>>
>>>Ancestry has a baptism entry for Cordelia :-
>>>Name Cordelia Eliza Courteney Thomas
>>>Birth 13 Apr 1825
>>>Baptism 6 Jun 1825 Morrice St
>>>-Wesleyan,Devonport,Devon,England
>>>Father William Thomas
>>>Mother Mary Nathaniel
>>>
>>From the other entries added, it looks like Nathaniel is her middle
>>name and her surname is actually MOORSAM.
>
>Sorry, who is "her" here - Cordelia? Jane?
>
Mary Nathaniel on the previous line.

>And Nathaniel for a her?
>
Not unknown for a middle name to be the "wrong" sex.

>(And FreeBMD has no marriages of anyone called Moorsam [with nothing
>else specified].)
>
FreeBMD only starts from 1837?

In message <211lfidmikai7d4u7v325v0u3pd9n4d8er@4ax.com> at Fri, 8 Sep
2023 03:20:01, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> writes
>On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 02:07:37 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <746afihth85s6avndmmlecttd8reo05hsa@4ax.com> at Mon, 4 Sep
>>2023 00:40:15, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> writes
>>>rOn Sun, 03 Sep 2023 23:28:29 +0100, Charles Ellson
>>><charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Thu, 31 Aug 2023 20:28:09 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver"
>>>><G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Jane Skelton
>>>>>
>>>>>• 1871 (as Jane Gibson, wife of Walter, in Sheffield): 32, POB
>>>>>Gibraltar Spain
>>>>>• 1861 (ditto [Walter is on previous page]): 22, POB Gibralter Spain
>>>>>• 1857Q4 Walter Gibson=Jane Skelton (Sheffield, 9c 299)
>>>>>• 1851 Jane Skelton, 12, POB Gibralter, with father William (42, POB
>>>>>Sheffield) [and his wife Cordelia 2x]
>>>>>• 1850Q1 William Skelton=Cordelia Eliza Courtney Thomas (so not Jane's
>>>>>mother)
>>>>>
>>>>>Any suggestions on how I can find anything on Jane (e. g. her mother's
>>>>>name/POB/DOB)? I'm not very familiar with Gibraltar records.
>>>>>
>>>>According to the GRO online index entry for Jane's brother Edwin,
>>>>their mother's surname is THOMAS.
>>>>
>>>>Their parents were married in East Stonehouse registration district in
>>>>Devon -
>>>>
>>>>Name Cordelia Eliza Courtney Thomas
>>>>Registration Year 1850 [1850]
>>>>Registration Quarter Jan-Feb-Mar
>>>>Registration district East Stonehouse
>>>>Inferred County Devon
>>>>Volume 9
>>>>Page 351
>>>>Records on Page (Name)
>>>>{...........}
>>>>William Skelton
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Ancestry has a baptism entry for Cordelia :-
>>>>Name Cordelia Eliza Courteney Thomas
>>>>Birth 13 Apr 1825
>>>>Baptism 6 Jun 1825 Morrice St
>>>>-Wesleyan,Devonport,Devon,England
>>>>Father William Thomas
>>>>Mother Mary Nathaniel
>>>>
>>>From the other entries added, it looks like Nathaniel is her middle
>>>name and her surname is actually MOORSAM.
>>
>>Sorry, who is "her" here - Cordelia? Jane?
>>
>Mary Nathaniel on the previous line.

Ah, sorry, should have worked that out.
>
>>And Nathaniel for a her?
>>
>Not unknown for a middle name to be the "wrong" sex.

Indeed. Sometimes the _sur_name of the father in illegitimate cases -
the only way the mother could get it recorded.
>
>>(And FreeBMD has no marriages of anyone called Moorsam [with nothing
>>else specified].)
>>
>FreeBMD only starts from 1837?

True. But I'm not really interested in Cordelia's parents, as she's not
Jane's mother (she's William's second wife). So I didn't go looking.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"I'm not against women. Not often enough, anyway." - Groucho Marx

On 08/09/2023 03:20, Charles Ellson wrote:
> Not unknown for a middle name to be the "wrong" sex.

Aren't Roman Catholics always Christened with an extra Saint's name
which is often the wrong gender.

On 08/09/2023 15:47, JMB99 wrote:
> On 08/09/2023 03:20, Charles Ellson wrote:
>> Not unknown for a middle name to be the "wrong" sex.
>
>
> Aren't Roman Catholics always Christened with an extra Saint's name
> which is often the wrong gender.
>
>

Not always but often. The wrong gender is usually male saint with female
person, the Catholic church not being an equal opportunities
organisation. Though in Latin countries many boys end up being
<something> Maria, as do almost all the girls.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Op 08-09-2023 om 18:29 schreef Graeme Wall:

> Not always but often. The wrong gender is usually male saint with female
> person, the Catholic church not being an equal opportunities
> organisation. Though in Latin countries many boys end up being
> <something> Maria, as do almost all the girls.

Not only Latin. I'm in The Netherlands, and I know a couple of men who
were baptized with Maria as their 3rd or 5th given name.

My late father was one of them.

Enno

On 09/09/2023 12:18, Enno Borgsteede wrote:
> Op 08-09-2023 om 18:29 schreef Graeme Wall:
>
>> Not always but often. The wrong gender is usually male saint with
>> female person, the Catholic church not being an equal opportunities
>> organisation. Though in Latin countries many boys end up being
>> <something> Maria, as do almost all the girls.
>
> Not only Latin. I'm in The Netherlands, and I know a couple of men who
> were baptized with Maria as their 3rd or 5th given name.
>
> My late father was one of them.
>

In Latin countries it is generally the second given name. Girls have it
as the first. Gets confusing when you confront 5 sisters all,
apparently, called Maria!

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Fri, 8 Sep 2023 09:51:49 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk>
wrote:

>In message <211lfidmikai7d4u7v325v0u3pd9n4d8er@4ax.com> at Fri, 8 Sep
>2023 03:20:01, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> writes
>>On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 02:07:37 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In message <746afihth85s6avndmmlecttd8reo05hsa@4ax.com> at Mon, 4 Sep
>>>2023 00:40:15, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> writes
>>>>rOn Sun, 03 Sep 2023 23:28:29 +0100, Charles Ellson
>>>><charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Thu, 31 Aug 2023 20:28:09 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver"
>>>>><G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Jane Skelton
>>>>>>
>>>>>>• 1871 (as Jane Gibson, wife of Walter, in Sheffield): 32, POB
>>>>>>Gibraltar Spain
>>>>>>• 1861 (ditto [Walter is on previous page]): 22, POB Gibralter Spain
>>>>>>• 1857Q4 Walter Gibson=Jane Skelton (Sheffield, 9c 299)
>>>>>>• 1851 Jane Skelton, 12, POB Gibralter, with father William (42, POB
>>>>>>Sheffield) [and his wife Cordelia 2x]
>>>>>>• 1850Q1 William Skelton=Cordelia Eliza Courtney Thomas (so not Jane's
>>>>>>mother)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Any suggestions on how I can find anything on Jane (e. g. her mother's
>>>>>>name/POB/DOB)? I'm not very familiar with Gibraltar records.
>>>>>>
>>>>>According to the GRO online index entry for Jane's brother Edwin,
>>>>>their mother's surname is THOMAS.
>>>>>
>>>>>Their parents were married in East Stonehouse registration district in
>>>>>Devon -
>>>>>
>>>>>Name Cordelia Eliza Courtney Thomas
>>>>>Registration Year 1850 [1850]
>>>>>Registration Quarter Jan-Feb-Mar
>>>>>Registration district East Stonehouse
>>>>>Inferred County Devon
>>>>>Volume 9
>>>>>Page 351
>>>>>Records on Page (Name)
>>>>>{...........}
>>>>>William Skelton
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Ancestry has a baptism entry for Cordelia :-
>>>>>Name Cordelia Eliza Courteney Thomas
>>>>>Birth 13 Apr 1825
>>>>>Baptism 6 Jun 1825 Morrice St
>>>>>-Wesleyan,Devonport,Devon,England
>>>>>Father William Thomas
>>>>>Mother Mary Nathaniel
>>>>>
>>>>From the other entries added, it looks like Nathaniel is her middle
>>>>name and her surname is actually MOORSAM.
>>>
>>>Sorry, who is "her" here - Cordelia? Jane?
>>>
>>Mary Nathaniel on the previous line.
>
>Ah, sorry, should have worked that out.
>>
>>>And Nathaniel for a her?
>>>
>>Not unknown for a middle name to be the "wrong" sex.
>
>Indeed. Sometimes the _sur_name of the father in illegitimate cases -
>the only way the mother could get it recorded.
>
In some places a fairly well established practice but certainly not
universal so local knowledge comes into it. It can be confused with
(as applies to me and my brother) using a grandparent's surname as a
middle name. Where either practice appears in the wrong place it can
be a clue to previous mass movement from elsewhere along with the
previous semi-rigid Scottish practice of naming a child after a
particular ancestor which I have found in a couple of Derbyshire
mining areas.
<snip>