Talking about plumbing with my friend, found out she has an expansion
tank on her water system, but since she uses a well, what is the point?

Are they afraid she'll contaminate the well, the aquifer that neighbors
use?

I don't understand backflow at all. Assuming I, using city water, had
thermal expansion, no backflow preventer, and backflow, how much can the
water possibly expand? How far back can it flow? 3 or 4 inches? Water,
even the water in a hot water tank, can't expand that much. 3 or 4
feet? Surely not far enough to meet the water that's going to my
neighbor's house.

Yet they have laws about this. To think the laws have no point would
mean stupid people are promoting the laws. Or maybe it's the powerful
backflow preventer lobby. Is the government dominated by Big Flow?

micky wrote:
> Talking about plumbing with my friend, found out she has an expansion
> tank on her water system, but since she uses a well, what is the point?
>
> Are they afraid she'll contaminate the well, the aquifer that neighbors
> use?
>
> I don't understand backflow at all. Assuming I, using city water, had
> thermal expansion, no backflow preventer, and backflow, how much can the
> water possibly expand? How far back can it flow? 3 or 4 inches? Water,
> even the water in a hot water tank, can't expand that much. 3 or 4
> feet? Surely not far enough to meet the water that's going to my
> neighbor's house.
>
> Yet they have laws about this. To think the laws have no point would
> mean stupid people are promoting the laws. Or maybe it's the powerful
> backflow preventer lobby. Is the government dominated by Big Flow?

It's an election year. Biden will lock down your water supply.
The expansion tank prevents the bird flu in your cow milk from contaminating the eggs and icemaker in your refrigerator and the mail-in ballot on the kitchen table.
Maybe you should prolly follow the science and wear an N-zero mask and get an modRNA bird flu vaxxxcine?
You should also social distance your eggs and ice cubes at least 6 feet apart.

On 4/27/2024 12:53 AM, micky wrote:
> Talking about plumbing with my friend, found out she has an expansion
> tank on her water system, but since she uses a well, what is the point?
>
> Are they afraid she'll contaminate the well, the aquifer that neighbors
> use?
>
> I don't understand backflow at all. Assuming I, using city water, had
> thermal expansion, no backflow preventer, and backflow, how much can the
> water possibly expand? How far back can it flow? 3 or 4 inches? Water,
> even the water in a hot water tank, can't expand that much. 3 or 4
> feet? Surely not far enough to meet the water that's going to my
> neighbor's house.
>
> Yet they have laws about this. To think the laws have no point would
> mean stupid people are promoting the laws. Or maybe it's the powerful
> backflow preventer lobby. Is the government dominated by Big Flow?

There more than just back-flow that an expansion tank prevents. See:

https://plumbingnav.com/water-heaters/water-heater-expansion-tanks-a-complete-guide/

On 4/27/2024 12:53 AM, micky wrote:
> Talking about plumbing with my friend, found out she has an expansion
> tank on her water system, but since she uses a well, what is the point?
>
> Are they afraid she'll contaminate the well, the aquifer that neighbors
> use?
>
> I don't understand backflow at all. Assuming I, using city water, had
> thermal expansion, no backflow preventer, and backflow, how much can the
> water possibly expand? How far back can it flow? 3 or 4 inches? Water,
> even the water in a hot water tank, can't expand that much. 3 or 4
> feet? Surely not far enough to meet the water that's going to my
> neighbor's house.
>
> Yet they have laws about this. To think the laws have no point would
> mean stupid people are promoting the laws. Or maybe it's the powerful
> backflow preventer lobby. Is the government dominated by Big Flow?

Many places now require back flow prevention. Slim odds it can happen,
but if the city water loses pressure, your residential boiler, that may
have chemicals, can push back in the system and potentially contaminate.
Irrigation systems can bring in chemicals too.

When we ran boilers at work from city supply, it was 150 psi and could
potentially travel some distance and of course, we used chemicals.

My water supply to the kitchen passes through the attic. It gets warm
up there in Florida and the first thing in the morning, the pressure is
increased.

My present house has a preventor but I did survive over 70 years without
one.

On Sat, 27 Apr 2024 00:53:20 -0400, micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com>
wrote:

>Talking about plumbing with my friend, found out she has an expansion
>tank on her water system, but since she uses a well, what is the point?
>
>Are they afraid she'll contaminate the well, the aquifer that neighbors
>use?
>
>I don't understand backflow at all. Assuming I, using city water, had
>thermal expansion, no backflow preventer, and backflow, how much can the
>water possibly expand? How far back can it flow? 3 or 4 inches? Water,
>even the water in a hot water tank, can't expand that much. 3 or 4
>feet? Surely not far enough to meet the water that's going to my
>neighbor's house.
>
>Yet they have laws about this. To think the laws have no point would
>mean stupid people are promoting the laws. Or maybe it's the powerful
>backflow preventer lobby. Is the government dominated by Big Flow?
When you use a well pump you NEED an "expansion tank" - it is
actually called an accumulator and it stores water under pressure
(pressure provided by air compressed in the top of the tank) so the
pump doesn't have to stop and start every time you crack the tap open
and so pressure remains relatively constant - liquids are
non-c0mpressible so pressure would be whatever the pump can produce -
instantaniously. This kind of pump is often used in RVs - on-demand
pumps - with relatively low max pressure regulated by a pypass.
Anti backflow valves and anti aiphon valves DO prevent contaminated
water frfom being "sucked" back into the supply system / well -
particularly in the event supply pressure drops or dissapears. Put
your hose into your pool and turn it on, then have a pressure failure
that allows water to flow back to the pump/supply and it starts a
siphon and sucks all ypour pool water into the supply. Replace pool
with a water puddle - same thing.
Those devices (and rules) ARE there for good reason. It's not (just)
(or at all) the "democrats" trying to control you!!!!!!!

On Sat, 27 Apr 2024 10:24:27 -0400, Retirednoguilt
<HapilyRetired@fakeaddress.com> wrote:

>On 4/27/2024 12:53 AM, micky wrote:
>> Talking about plumbing with my friend, found out she has an expansion
>> tank on her water system, but since she uses a well, what is the point?
>>
>> Are they afraid she'll contaminate the well, the aquifer that neighbors
>> use?
>>
>> I don't understand backflow at all. Assuming I, using city water, had
>> thermal expansion, no backflow preventer, and backflow, how much can the
>> water possibly expand? How far back can it flow? 3 or 4 inches? Water,
>> even the water in a hot water tank, can't expand that much. 3 or 4
>> feet? Surely not far enough to meet the water that's going to my
>> neighbor's house.
>>
>> Yet they have laws about this. To think the laws have no point would
>> mean stupid people are promoting the laws. Or maybe it's the powerful
>> backflow preventer lobby. Is the government dominated by Big Flow?
>
>There more than just back-flow that an expansion tank prevents. See:
>
>https://plumbingnav.com/water-heaters/water-heater-expansion-tanks-a-complete-guide/
>
a 40 gallon water tank contents will expand by roughly 1.25 gallons
(roughly 3%) when heated from ground temperature (roughly 45F ) to
150F. Without a compressible expansion chamber that would produce
INCREDIBLE hydraulic pressure within the tank and pipes if restrained
by an anti-backflow valve - seriously damaging the system.

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 27 Apr 2024 12:08:43 -0400, Ed P
<esp@snet.xxx> wrote:

>On 4/27/2024 12:53 AM, micky wrote:
>> Talking about plumbing with my friend, found out she has an expansion
>> tank on her water system, but since she uses a well, what is the point?
>>
>> Are they afraid she'll contaminate the well, the aquifer that neighbors
>> use?
>>
>> I don't understand backflow at all. Assuming I, using city water, had
>> thermal expansion, no backflow preventer, and backflow, how much can the
>> water possibly expand? How far back can it flow? 3 or 4 inches? Water,
>> even the water in a hot water tank, can't expand that much. 3 or 4
>> feet? Surely not far enough to meet the water that's going to my
>> neighbor's house.
>>
>> Yet they have laws about this. To think the laws have no point would
>> mean stupid people are promoting the laws. Or maybe it's the powerful
>> backflow preventer lobby. Is the government dominated by Big Flow?
>
>
>Many places now require back flow prevention. Slim odds it can happen,
>but if the city water loses pressure, your residential boiler, that may
>have chemicals, can push back in the system and potentially contaminate.
> Irrigation systems can bring in chemicals too.
>
>When we ran boilers at work from city supply, it was 150 psi and could
>potentially travel some distance and of course, we used chemicals.
>
>My water supply to the kitchen passes through the attic. It gets warm
>up there in Florida and the first thing in the morning, the pressure is
>increased.
>
>My present house has a preventor but I did survive over 70 years without
>one.

I have no boiler, only an electric water heater. Except for some heat,
everything in it came from the water company to begin with.

I'v e been reading and the pressure regulators advertised seem to all
have bypass valves, so I suppose the one I had that just failed did
also, and so will the new one. That would relieve pressure if the water
heater were overheating, and so would the TP valve on the water heater.
That's its purpose. However one page hinted that the water meter might
prevent backflow. Mine is undergound and no one has looked at it 49
years since it was installed (becasue all 100 of us share one water
meter. in fact I think 5 or 600 of us share one meter.)

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 27 Apr 2024 18:57:19 -0400, Clare Snyder
<clare@snyder.on.ca> wrote:

>On Sat, 27 Apr 2024 00:53:20 -0400, micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Talking about plumbing with my friend, found out she has an expansion
>>tank on her water system, but since she uses a well, what is the point?
>>
>>Are they afraid she'll contaminate the well, the aquifer that neighbors
>>use?
>>
>>I don't understand backflow at all. Assuming I, using city water, had
>>thermal expansion, no backflow preventer, and backflow, how much can the
>>water possibly expand? How far back can it flow? 3 or 4 inches? Water,
>>even the water in a hot water tank, can't expand that much. 3 or 4
>>feet? Surely not far enough to meet the water that's going to my
>>neighbor's house.
>>
>>Yet they have laws about this. To think the laws have no point would
>>mean stupid people are promoting the laws. Or maybe it's the powerful
>>backflow preventer lobby. Is the government dominated by Big Flow?
> When you use a well pump you NEED an "expansion tank" - it is
>actually called an accumulator and it stores water under pressure
>(pressure provided by air compressed in the top of the tank) so the
>pump doesn't have to stop and start every time you crack the tap open
>and so pressure remains relatively constant - liquids are
>non-c0mpressible so pressure would be whatever the pump can produce -
>instantaniously. This kind of pump is often used in RVs - on-demand
>pumps - with relatively low max pressure regulated by a pypass.
> Anti backflow valves and anti aiphon valves DO prevent contaminated
>water frfom being "sucked" back into the supply system / well -
>particularly in the event supply pressure drops or dissapears. Put
>your hose into your pool and turn it on, then have a pressure failure

Darn, I've misplaced my swimming pool.

>that allows water to flow back to the pump/supply and it starts a
>siphon and sucks all ypour pool water into the supply. Replace pool
>with a water puddle - same thing.
> Those devices (and rules) ARE there for good reason. It's not (just)
>(or at all) the "democrats" trying to control you!!!!!!!

Yes, the Democrats are trying to control us. Every new idea is from the
Democrats, and they are all bad. Don't you listen to the radio. We
need to go back to 1776.

Turd Stain <skid.marks@socialist.media> writes:
>micky wrote:
>> Talking about plumbing with my friend, found out she has an expansion
>> tank on her water system, but since she uses a well, what is the point?

It's because there is a check valve on the pump. The expansion tank
(which is associated with the hot water heater), prevents the internal piping from
potentially bursting due to a pressure increase in the hot water
heater.

Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca> writes:
>On Sat, 27 Apr 2024 00:53:20 -0400, micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Talking about plumbing with my friend, found out she has an expansion
>>tank on her water system, but since she uses a well, what is the point?
>>
>>Are they afraid she'll contaminate the well, the aquifer that neighbors
>>use?
>>
>>I don't understand backflow at all. Assuming I, using city water, had
>>thermal expansion, no backflow preventer, and backflow, how much can the
>>water possibly expand? How far back can it flow? 3 or 4 inches? Water,
>>even the water in a hot water tank, can't expand that much. 3 or 4
>>feet? Surely not far enough to meet the water that's going to my
>>neighbor's house.
>>
>>Yet they have laws about this. To think the laws have no point would
>>mean stupid people are promoting the laws. Or maybe it's the powerful
>>backflow preventer lobby. Is the government dominated by Big Flow?
> When you use a well pump you NEED an "expansion tank" - it is
>actually called an accumulator and it stores water under pressure
>(pressure provided by air compressed in the top of the tank) so the
>pump doesn't have to stop and start every time you crack the tap open
>and so pressure remains relatively constant - liquids are

Thats the pressure tank, often used with a booster
pump when the well pump fills a water tank. I have
two, one for the irrigation well and one for the
potable supply tank.

The expansion tank is for the hot water heater to
prevent burst pipes when there is a check valve
on the supply line (from the pump, tank or city
water system). Required in many states.

On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 17:11:39 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:

>Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca> writes:
>>On Sat, 27 Apr 2024 00:53:20 -0400, micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Talking about plumbing with my friend, found out she has an expansion
>>>tank on her water system, but since she uses a well, what is the point?
>>>
>>>Are they afraid she'll contaminate the well, the aquifer that neighbors
>>>use?
>>>
>>>I don't understand backflow at all. Assuming I, using city water, had
>>>thermal expansion, no backflow preventer, and backflow, how much can the
>>>water possibly expand? How far back can it flow? 3 or 4 inches? Water,
>>>even the water in a hot water tank, can't expand that much. 3 or 4
>>>feet? Surely not far enough to meet the water that's going to my
>>>neighbor's house.
>>>
>>>Yet they have laws about this. To think the laws have no point would
>>>mean stupid people are promoting the laws. Or maybe it's the powerful
>>>backflow preventer lobby. Is the government dominated by Big Flow?
>> When you use a well pump you NEED an "expansion tank" - it is
>>actually called an accumulator and it stores water under pressure
>>(pressure provided by air compressed in the top of the tank) so the
>>pump doesn't have to stop and start every time you crack the tap open
>>and so pressure remains relatively constant - liquids are
>
>Thats the pressure tank, often used with a booster
>pump when the well pump fills a water tank. I have
>two, one for the irrigation well and one for the
>potable supply tank.
>
>The expansion tank is for the hot water heater to
>prevent burst pipes when there is a check valve
>on the supply line (from the pump, tank or city
>water system). Required in many states.

Minor quibble, but can we not call it a hot water heater? It's just a water
heater. If anything, it's a cold water heater, since the incoming water is cold.
If the incoming water was already hot, there would be no work for the heater to
do. :)

On 4/30/2024 10:08 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Turd Stain <skid.marks@socialist.media> writes:
>> micky wrote:
>>> Talking about plumbing with my friend, found out she has an expansion
>>> tank on her water system, but since she uses a well, what is the point?
>
> It's because there is a check valve on the pump. The expansion tank
> (which is associated with the hot water heater), prevents the internal piping from
> potentially bursting due to a pressure increase in the hot water
> heater.
>

The check valve is between the pump and the pressure tank, which
functionally is an expansion tank.

In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 30 Apr 2024 13:34:32 -0500, Jim Joyce
<none@none.invalid> wrote:

>
>Minor quibble, but can we not call it a hot water heater? It's just a water
>heater. If anything, it's a cold water heater, since the incoming water is cold.
>If the incoming water was already hot, there would be no work for the heater to
>do. :)

That is a great environmental idea. If the city water company would send
out hot water, howeowners could save a lot of money by using little or
no gas or electricity in their water heater. Plainly it's more
efficient to heat it all in one place than have all these little
heaters.

We also need to devise a way for more wells to deliver hot water.

On 5/1/2024 9:13 AM, micky wrote:
> In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 30 Apr 2024 13:34:32 -0500, Jim Joyce
> <none@none.invalid> wrote:
>
>>
>> Minor quibble, but can we not call it a hot water heater? It's just a water
>> heater. If anything, it's a cold water heater, since the incoming water is cold.
>> If the incoming water was already hot, there would be no work for the heater to
>> do. :)
>
> That is a great environmental idea. If the city water company would send
> out hot water, howeowners could save a lot of money by using little or
> no gas or electricity in their water heater. Plainly it's more
> efficient to heat it all in one place than have all these little
> heaters.
>
> We also need to devise a way for more wells to deliver hot water.

There is a facility in many cities piping hot water or steam to
businesses downtown.

In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 1 May 2024 09:29:54 -0700, Bob F
<bobnospam@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 5/1/2024 9:13 AM, micky wrote:
>> In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 30 Apr 2024 13:34:32 -0500, Jim Joyce
>> <none@none.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Minor quibble, but can we not call it a hot water heater? It's just a water
>>> heater. If anything, it's a cold water heater, since the incoming water is cold.
>>> If the incoming water was already hot, there would be no work for the heater to
>>> do. :)
>>
>> That is a great environmental idea. If the city water company would send
>> out hot water, howeowners could save a lot of money by using little or
>> no gas or electricity in their water heater. Plainly it's more
>> efficient to heat it all in one place than have all these little
>> heaters.
>>
>> We also need to devise a way for more wells to deliver hot water.
>
>There is a facility in many cities piping hot water or steam to
>businesses downtown.

Yes, I've beena big influence on some cities.

micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> writes:
>In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 30 Apr 2024 13:34:32 -0500, Jim Joyce
><none@none.invalid> wrote:
>
>>
>>Minor quibble, but can we not call it a hot water heater? It's just a water
>>heater. If anything, it's a cold water heater, since the incoming water is cold.
>>If the incoming water was already hot, there would be no work for the heater to
>>do. :)
>
>That is a great environmental idea. If the city water company would send
>out hot water, howeowners could save a lot of money by using little or
>no gas or electricity in their water heater.

That's pretty silly.

How much heat would be lost transporting the hot water and holding
it in pipes underground? How much
would it cost to build the infrastructure in existing cities?

There are communities in many parts of the world that distribute
hot water (steam) for heating, but that infrastructure was built
with the community (or installed a century ago). Even parts of
Manhatten still get steam from a central source for heating.

On 5/1/2024 9:41 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> writes:
>> In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 30 Apr 2024 13:34:32 -0500, Jim Joyce
>> <none@none.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Minor quibble, but can we not call it a hot water heater? It's just a water
>>> heater. If anything, it's a cold water heater, since the incoming water is cold.
>>> If the incoming water was already hot, there would be no work for the heater to
>>> do. :)
>>
>> That is a great environmental idea. If the city water company would send
>> out hot water, howeowners could save a lot of money by using little or
>> no gas or electricity in their water heater.
>
> That's pretty silly.
>
> How much heat would be lost transporting the hot water and holding
> it in pipes underground? How much
> would it cost to build the infrastructure in existing cities?
>
> There are communities in many parts of the world that distribute
> hot water (steam) for heating, but that infrastructure was built
> with the community (or installed a century ago). Even parts of
> Manhatten still get steam from a central source for heating.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2008/apr/22/renewableenergy.alternativeenergy

On Wed, 01 May 2024 12:13:31 -0400, micky wrote:

> That is a great environmental idea. If the city water company would send
> out hot water, howeowners could save a lot of money by using little or
> no gas or electricity in their water heater. Plainly it's more
> efficient to heat it all in one place than have all these little
> heaters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_heating

On Wed, 01 May 2024 16:41:18 GMT, Scott Lurndal wrote:

> That's pretty silly.
>
> How much heat would be lost transporting the hot water and holding it in
> pipes underground? How much would it cost to build the infrastructure
> in existing cities?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_heating