Who is lying, Evolutionists or Creationists? A 12-minute video from
Answers in Genesis Canada:

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zignS602-f8>

From the introduction:
***************************
Calvin Smith has unearthed a lie that has been in front of our eyes
since primary school: most dead fish float; they don’t sink. Fossils
are the result of rapid rock formations, and evolutionists know this.
Now they have started to change their story and borrow from the
creationist’s worldview.
****************************

My impression is this is the kind of argument which convinces
pseudoskeptics. It's beyond credulity to suppose Smith can't even
imagine how floating dead fish don't occasionally wash into shallow
water and/or shore, and then get buried.

Worse, Smith conflates the need for rapid burial, to isolate potential
fossil material from scavengers and bacteria, with the need for
geologically long periods of time, to deposit multiple and different
layers and convert them to rock.

Smith quotes John 3:12:
"If you don't believe me when I tell you about earthly things, how can
you possibly believe if I tell you about heavenly things?"

Exactly so. And that's how science turns YECs into non-believers.

--
To know less than we don't know is the nature of most knowledge

On 1/2/24 8:16 PM, jillery wrote:
> Who is lying, Evolutionists or Creationists? A 12-minute video from
> Answers in Genesis Canada:
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zignS602-f8>
>
> From the introduction:
> ***************************
> Calvin Smith has unearthed a lie that has been in front of our eyes
> since primary school: most dead fish float; they don’t sink. Fossils
> are the result of rapid rock formations, and evolutionists know this.
> Now they have started to change their story and borrow from the
> creationist’s worldview.
> ****************************
>
> My impression is this is the kind of argument which convinces
> pseudoskeptics. It's beyond credulity to suppose Smith can't even
> imagine how floating dead fish don't occasionally wash into shallow
> water and/or shore, and then get buried.

Well, most fish fossils are in marine or fresh water sediments, so
washing into shore isn't a major mechanism. But who says dead fish
always or even usually float? Plenty of dead fish sink, and even the
ones that float will sink eventually.

> Worse, Smith conflates the need for rapid burial, to isolate potential
> fossil material from scavengers and bacteria, with the need for
> geologically long periods of time, to deposit multiple and different
> layers and convert them to rock.
>
> Smith quotes John 3:12:
> "If you don't believe me when I tell you about earthly things, how can
> you possibly believe if I tell you about heavenly things?"
>
> Exactly so. And that's how science turns YECs into non-believers.
>
> --
> To know less than we don't know is the nature of most knowledge
>

On Wednesday, January 3, 2024 at 12:07:27 AM UTC-5, John Harshman wrote:
> On 1/2/24 8:16 PM, jillery wrote:
> > Who is lying, Evolutionists or Creationists? A 12-minute video from
> > Answers in Genesis Canada:
> >
> > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zignS602-f8>
> >
> > From the introduction:
> > ***************************
> > Calvin Smith has unearthed a lie that has been in front of our eyes
> > since primary school: most dead fish float; they don’t sink. Fossils
> > are the result of rapid rock formations, and evolutionists know this.
> > Now they have started to change their story and borrow from the
> > creationist’s worldview.
> > ****************************
> >
> > My impression is this is the kind of argument which convinces
> > pseudoskeptics. It's beyond credulity to suppose Smith can't even
> > imagine how floating dead fish don't occasionally wash into shallow
> > water and/or shore, and then get buried.
> Well, most fish fossils are in marine or fresh water sediments, so
> washing into shore isn't a major mechanism. But who says dead fish
> always or even usually float? Plenty of dead fish sink, and even the
> ones that float will sink eventually.

As someone who has tried to keep fish alive in home aquariums for many
years, I can testify that dead fish don't always float. The ones that do float
can however be seen floating. Out of sight, out of mind? Do creationists
have object permanence?

> > Worse, Smith conflates the need for rapid burial, to isolate potential
> > fossil material from scavengers and bacteria, with the need for
> > geologically long periods of time, to deposit multiple and different
> > layers and convert them to rock.
> >
> > Smith quotes John 3:12:
> > "If you don't believe me when I tell you about earthly things, how can
> > you possibly believe if I tell you about heavenly things?"
> >
> > Exactly so. And that's how science turns YECs into non-believers.
> >
> > --
> > To know less than we don't know is the nature of most knowledge
> >

On 03/01/2024 04:16, jillery wrote:
> Who is lying, Evolutionists or Creationists? A 12-minute video from
> Answers in Genesis Canada:
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zignS602-f8>
>
> From the introduction:
> ***************************
> Calvin Smith has unearthed a lie that has been in front of our eyes
> since primary school: most dead fish float; they don’t sink. Fossils
> are the result of rapid rock formations, and evolutionists know this.
> Now they have started to change their story and borrow from the
> creationist’s worldview.
> ****************************
>
> My impression is this is the kind of argument which convinces
> pseudoskeptics. It's beyond credulity to suppose Smith can't even
> imagine how floating dead fish don't occasionally wash into shallow
> water and/or shore, and then get buried.
>
> Worse, Smith conflates the need for rapid burial, to isolate potential
> fossil material from scavengers and bacteria, with the need for
> geologically long periods of time, to deposit multiple and different
> layers and convert them to rock.
>
> Smith quotes John 3:12:
> "If you don't believe me when I tell you about earthly things, how can
> you possibly believe if I tell you about heavenly things?"

That reminds me of the classic quote from Saint Augustine. Out of
context I would interpret this as meaning the same as Saint Augustine,
but you give the impression that Smith took a diametrically opposite
meaning. In context of John 3: 1-21, I think that I need ever more
context to understand the verse.
>
> Exactly so. And that's how science turns YECs into non-believers.
>
> --
> To know less than we don't know is the nature of most knowledge
>

--
alias Ernest Major

On Tue, 2 Jan 2024 21:01:57 -0800, John Harshman
<john.harshman@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 1/2/24 8:16 PM, jillery wrote:
>> Who is lying, Evolutionists or Creationists? A 12-minute video from
>> Answers in Genesis Canada:
>>
>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zignS602-f8>
>>
>> From the introduction:
>> ***************************
>> Calvin Smith has unearthed a lie that has been in front of our eyes
>> since primary school: most dead fish float; they don’t sink. Fossils
>> are the result of rapid rock formations, and evolutionists know this.
>> Now they have started to change their story and borrow from the
>> creationist’s worldview.
>> ****************************
>>
>> My impression is this is the kind of argument which convinces
>> pseudoskeptics. It's beyond credulity to suppose Smith can't even
>> imagine how floating dead fish don't occasionally wash into shallow
>> water and/or shore, and then get buried.
>
>Well, most fish fossils are in marine or fresh water sediments, so
>washing into shore isn't a major mechanism. But who says dead fish
>always or even usually float? Plenty of dead fish sink, and even the
>ones that float will sink eventually.

A significant fossil mechanism is of lakes and streams which regularly
dry up and refill, which would also bury floating fish. Also, plenty
of other organisms get stuck in mud and are then buried.

The larger point is Smith presumes his limited experience provides
some sort of "gotcha" argument about taphonomy, an issue with your
example as well as mine.

>> Worse, Smith conflates the need for rapid burial, to isolate potential
>> fossil material from scavengers and bacteria, with the need for
>> geologically long periods of time, to deposit multiple and different
>> layers and convert them to rock.
>>
>> Smith quotes John 3:12:
>> "If you don't believe me when I tell you about earthly things, how can
>> you possibly believe if I tell you about heavenly things?"
>>
>> Exactly so. And that's how science turns YECs into non-believers.
>>
>> --
>> To know less than we don't know is the nature of most knowledge
>>

--
To know less than we don't know is the nature of most knowledge

On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 09:51:14 +0000, Ernest Major
<{$to$}@meden.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 03/01/2024 04:16, jillery wrote:
>> Who is lying, Evolutionists or Creationists? A 12-minute video from
>> Answers in Genesis Canada:
>>
>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zignS602-f8>
>>
>> From the introduction:
>> ***************************
>> Calvin Smith has unearthed a lie that has been in front of our eyes
>> since primary school: most dead fish float; they don’t sink. Fossils
>> are the result of rapid rock formations, and evolutionists know this.
>> Now they have started to change their story and borrow from the
>> creationist’s worldview.
>> ****************************
>>
>> My impression is this is the kind of argument which convinces
>> pseudoskeptics. It's beyond credulity to suppose Smith can't even
>> imagine how floating dead fish don't occasionally wash into shallow
>> water and/or shore, and then get buried.
>>
>> Worse, Smith conflates the need for rapid burial, to isolate potential
>> fossil material from scavengers and bacteria, with the need for
>> geologically long periods of time, to deposit multiple and different
>> layers and convert them to rock.
>>
>> Smith quotes John 3:12:
>> "If you don't believe me when I tell you about earthly things, how can
>> you possibly believe if I tell you about heavenly things?"
>>
>
>That reminds me of the classic quote from Saint Augustine. Out of
>context I would interpret this as meaning the same as Saint Augustine,
>but you give the impression that Smith took a diametrically opposite
>meaning. In context of John 3: 1-21, I think that I need ever more
>context to understand the verse.

Augustine expressed concern about believers raising their faith to
scorn, and that's what Smith and other YECs do. While he and they
claim to speak of facts, their own words show they have no idea what
they're talking about. Their testimonies are bad science and worse
theology.

>> Exactly so. And that's how science turns YECs into non-believers.

--
To know less than we don't know is the nature of most knowledge