First day of school... the 10th grade biology teacher asks the students
what they believed to be the purpose of sexual reproduction. every hand
goes up:

" To produce children, so there will always be someone around to mow
grass, polish cars, put Ikea furniture together, you know, all of the
things that grown people cannot do terribly well...

However that turns out to be the wrong answer; the right answer is more
complicated than that. Bacteria manage to reproduce themselves without
sex and there are other simple creatures that do not participate in
sexual reproduction.

What sexual reproduction actually is, is an error correction system for
Digital Data, similar to checksums or TCP/IP; in fact you could think of
it as God's version of TCP/IP. The purpose is precisely to prevent
mutations and recessive genes and basically all of the things that
supposedly Drive evolution. Without sexual reproduction, every living
thing on Earth above the level bacteria and worms and what not, would be
dumb, dysfunctional, and ugly like Democrats.

panther2020 wrote:

> First day of school... the 10th grade biology teacher asks the students
> what they believed to be the purpose of sexual reproduction. every hand
> goes up:
>
> " To produce children, so there will always be someone around to mow
> grass, polish cars, put Ikea furniture together, you know, all of the
> things that grown people cannot do terribly well...

Especially configuring smart phones and toasters.

> However that turns out to be the wrong answer; the right answer is more
> complicated than that. Bacteria manage to reproduce themselves without
> sex and there are other simple creatures that do not participate in
> sexual reproduction.
>
> What sexual reproduction actually is, is an error correction system for
> Digital Data, similar to checksums or TCP/IP; in fact you could think of
> it as God's version of TCP/IP. The purpose is precisely to prevent
> mutations and recessive genes and basically all of the things that
> supposedly Drive evolution. Without sexual reproduction, every living
> thing on Earth above the level bacteria and worms and what not, would be
> dumb, dysfunctional, and ugly like Democrats.

Your post is an attempt at parody, right?

Everyone knows the whole point of sexual reproduction is
to create genetic diversity so that evolution can happen.
And to give us something to look forward to as we plod
thru each dull drab day.

Asexual bacteria creating carbon copies of themselves
makes for painfully slow adaptation and evolution.

On Wednesday, January 3, 2024 at 5:57:28 PM UTC-5, El Kabong wrote:
> panther2020 wrote:
>
> > First day of school... the 10th grade biology teacher asks the students
> > what they believed to be the purpose of sexual reproduction. every hand
> > goes up:
> >
> > " To produce children, so there will always be someone around to mow
> > grass, polish cars, put Ikea furniture together, you know, all of the
> > things that grown people cannot do terribly well...
> Especially configuring smart phones and toasters.
> > However that turns out to be the wrong answer; the right answer is more
> > complicated than that. Bacteria manage to reproduce themselves without
> > sex and there are other simple creatures that do not participate in
> > sexual reproduction.
> >
> > What sexual reproduction actually is, is an error correction system for
> > Digital Data, similar to checksums or TCP/IP; in fact you could think of
> > it as God's version of TCP/IP. The purpose is precisely to prevent
> > mutations and recessive genes and basically all of the things that
> > supposedly Drive evolution. Without sexual reproduction, every living
> > thing on Earth above the level bacteria and worms and what not, would be
> > dumb, dysfunctional, and ugly like Democrats.
> Your post is an attempt at parody, right?
>
> Everyone knows the whole point of sexual reproduction is
> to create genetic diversity so that evolution can happen.
> And to give us something to look forward to as we plod
> thru each dull drab day.
>
> Asexual bacteria creating carbon copies of themselves
> makes for painfully slow adaptation and evolution.

I thought the purpose of sex was to lead to pornography which would then
be motivation to develop the internet which would then lead to the development
of skynet and the evolution of machine level intelligence.

On 2024-01-03, El Kabong <twang@the.noodle> wrote:
> panther2020 wrote:
>>
>> What sexual reproduction actually is, is an error correction system for
>> Digital Data, similar to checksums or TCP/IP; in fact you could think of
>> it as God's version of TCP/IP. The purpose is precisely to prevent
>> mutations and recessive genes and basically all of the things that
>> supposedly Drive evolution. Without sexual reproduction, every living
>> thing on Earth above the level bacteria and worms and what not, would be
>> dumb, dysfunctional, and ugly like Democrats.
>
> Your post is an attempt at parody, right?
>
> Everyone knows the whole point of sexual reproduction is
> to create genetic diversity so that evolution can happen.
> And to give us something to look forward to as we plod
> thru each dull drab day.
>
> Asexual bacteria creating carbon copies of themselves
> makes for painfully slow adaptation and evolution.
>

This takes me back ...

Williams, G.C. 1975. Sex and Evolution. Princeton University Press, Princeton, N.J.

Maynard Smith, J. (1978d) The Evolution of Sex. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0-521-29302-2
and his notion of the "two-fold cost of sex".

On 1/3/2024 4:46 PM, panther2020 wrote:
>
> First day of school... the 10th grade biology teacher asks the students
> what they believed to be the purpose of sexual reproduction. every hand
> goes up:
>
> " To produce children, so there will always be someone around to mow
> grass, polish cars, put Ikea furniture together, you know, all of the
> things that grown people cannot do terribly well...

For an anecdote to be believable, it has to be at least plausible. It
isn't likely that asking a room full of 15 year olds what the purpose of
sexual reproduction is would result in an answer from any of them that
sounds like it was generated by an AI algorithm at dadjokes.com, let
alone unanimity in the answer.

> However that turns out to be the wrong answer; the right answer is more
> complicated than that. Bacteria manage to reproduce themselves without
> sex and there are other simple creatures that do not participate in
> sexual reproduction.

Congratulations, you managed to identify the difference between sexual
and asexual reproduction - which wasn't the question asked of the
hypothetical students.

>
> What sexual reproduction actually is, is an error correction system for
> Digital Data,

No, it isn't. Error correction is a _part_ of DNA replication, which
isn't exclusive to sexual reproduction, it occurs in asexual
reproduction as well.

> similar to checksums or TCP/IP; in fact you could think of
> it as God's version of TCP/IP.

In order for an analogy to be believable, it has to at at least have
some semblance to the process being analogized. I'm not seeing much
similarity between a DNA strand unwinding > base pairing and data
communication systems. Data duplication would be a better analogy.

Besides that error correction in TCP/IP consists of Parity, CRC, and
Foward/backward error correction (FEC/BEC), all of which are numerically
calculated based on the numerical content of the data packets. If
there's an error, it doesn't get fixed. The system asks for a
retransmission (FEC requires redundant packets to begin with). The
TCP\IP error correction doesn't assess the intent of the data, only that
there was a discrepancy of the calculated value vs the read value. DNA
error correction reads the "intent" of the "data", and repairs it to
what it should be. It's vastly more complicated than simple TCP/IP error
correction/detection protocols.

> The purpose is precisely to prevent
> mutations

How's that workin' out for ya?

> and recessive genes

DNA error correction is designed to prevent recessive genes? I wasn't
aware of that.

> and basically all of the things that
> supposedly Drive evolution.

hmmmmm.....You might want to read up on 'selection pressure'. Last I
knew, DNA replication had little to do with influencing the environment,
but I could be wrong.

> Without sexual reproduction, every living
> thing on Earth above the level bacteria and worms and what not, would be
> dumb, dysfunctional, and ugly like Democrats.

Ah, I see. I didn't realize I was dealing with a magatard.
Never mind.

--
Add xx to reply

On 1/4/24 10:09 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
> On 1/3/2024 4:46 PM, panther2020 wrote:
>>
>> First day of school... the 10th grade biology teacher asks the
>> students what they believed to be the purpose of sexual reproduction.
>> every hand goes up:
>>
>> " To produce children, so there will always be someone around to mow
>> grass, polish cars, put Ikea furniture together, you know, all of the
>> things that grown people cannot do terribly well...
>
> For an anecdote to be believable, it has to be at least plausible. It
> isn't likely that asking a room full of 15 year olds what the purpose of
> sexual reproduction is would result in an answer from any of them that
> sounds like it was generated by an AI algorithm at dadjokes.com, let
> alone unanimity in the answer.
>
>> However that turns out to be the wrong answer; the right answer is
>> more complicated than that. Bacteria manage to reproduce themselves
>> without sex and there are other simple creatures that do not
>> participate in sexual reproduction.
>
> Congratulations, you managed to identify the difference between sexual
> and asexual reproduction - which wasn't the question asked of the
> hypothetical students.
>
>>
>> What sexual reproduction actually is, is an error correction system
>> for Digital Data,
>
> No, it isn't. Error correction is a _part_ of DNA replication, which
> isn't exclusive to sexual reproduction, it occurs in asexual
> reproduction as well.
>
>> similar to checksums or TCP/IP; in fact you could think of it as God's
>> version of TCP/IP.
>
> In order for an analogy to be believable, it has to at at least have
> some semblance to the process being analogized. I'm not seeing much
> similarity between a DNA strand unwinding > base pairing and data
> communication systems. Data duplication would be a better analogy.
>
> Besides that error correction in TCP/IP consists of Parity, CRC, and
> Foward/backward error correction (FEC/BEC), all of which are numerically
> calculated based on the numerical content of the data packets. If
> there's an error,  it doesn't get fixed. The system asks for a
> retransmission (FEC requires redundant packets to begin with). The
> TCP\IP error correction doesn't assess the intent of the data, only that
> there was a discrepancy of the calculated value vs the read value. DNA
> error correction reads the "intent" of the "data", and repairs it to
> what it should be. It's vastly more complicated than simple TCP/IP error
> correction/detection protocols.
>
>> The purpose is precisely to prevent mutations
>
> How's that workin' out for ya?
>
>> and recessive genes
>
> DNA error correction is designed to prevent recessive genes? I wasn't
> aware of that.
>
>> and basically all of the things that supposedly Drive evolution.
>
> hmmmmm.....You might want to read up on 'selection pressure'. Last I
> knew, DNA replication had little to do with influencing the environment,
> but I could be wrong.
>
>> Without sexual reproduction, every living thing on Earth above the
>> level bacteria and worms and what not, would be dumb, dysfunctional,
>> and ugly like Democrats.
>
> Ah, I see. I didn't realize I was dealing with a magatard.
> Never mind.
>
Yes, indeed. He's infested SBP as well. Killfiles are your friend.

On 1/4/2024 1:20 PM, erik simpson wrote:
> On 1/4/24 10:09 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>> On 1/3/2024 4:46 PM, panther2020 wrote:
>>>
>>> First day of school... the 10th grade biology teacher asks the
>>> students what they believed to be the purpose of sexual reproduction.
>>> every hand goes up:
>>>
>>> " To produce children, so there will always be someone around to mow
>>> grass, polish cars, put Ikea furniture together, you know, all of the
>>> things that grown people cannot do terribly well...
>>
>> For an anecdote to be believable, it has to be at least plausible. It
>> isn't likely that asking a room full of 15 year olds what the purpose
>> of sexual reproduction is would result in an answer from any of them
>> that sounds like it was generated by an AI algorithm at dadjokes.com,
>> let alone unanimity in the answer.
>>
>>> However that turns out to be the wrong answer; the right answer is
>>> more complicated than that. Bacteria manage to reproduce themselves
>>> without sex and there are other simple creatures that do not
>>> participate in sexual reproduction.
>>
>> Congratulations, you managed to identify the difference between sexual
>> and asexual reproduction - which wasn't the question asked of the
>> hypothetical students.
>>
>>>
>>> What sexual reproduction actually is, is an error correction system
>>> for Digital Data,
>>
>> No, it isn't. Error correction is a _part_ of DNA replication, which
>> isn't exclusive to sexual reproduction, it occurs in asexual
>> reproduction as well.
>>
>>> similar to checksums or TCP/IP; in fact you could think of it as
>>> God's version of TCP/IP.
>>
>> In order for an analogy to be believable, it has to at at least have
>> some semblance to the process being analogized. I'm not seeing much
>> similarity between a DNA strand unwinding > base pairing and data
>> communication systems. Data duplication would be a better analogy.
>>
>> Besides that error correction in TCP/IP consists of Parity, CRC, and
>> Foward/backward error correction (FEC/BEC), all of which are
>> numerically calculated based on the numerical content of the data
>> packets. If there's an error,  it doesn't get fixed. The system asks
>> for a retransmission (FEC requires redundant packets to begin with).
>> The TCP\IP error correction doesn't assess the intent of the data,
>> only that there was a discrepancy of the calculated value vs the read
>> value. DNA error correction reads the "intent" of the "data", and
>> repairs it to what it should be. It's vastly more complicated than
>> simple TCP/IP error correction/detection protocols.
>>
>>> The purpose is precisely to prevent mutations
>>
>> How's that workin' out for ya?
>>
>>> and recessive genes
>>
>> DNA error correction is designed to prevent recessive genes? I wasn't
>> aware of that.
>>
>>> and basically all of the things that supposedly Drive evolution.
>>
>> hmmmmm.....You might want to read up on 'selection pressure'. Last I
>> knew, DNA replication had little to do with influencing the
>> environment, but I could be wrong.
>>
>>> Without sexual reproduction, every living thing on Earth above the
>>> level bacteria and worms and what not, would be dumb, dysfunctional,
>>> and ugly like Democrats.
>>
>> Ah, I see. I didn't realize I was dealing with a magatard.
>> Never mind.
>>
> Yes, indeed.  He's infested SBP as well. Killfiles are your friend.
>

I was a little suspicious when I saw the cross posting to alt.sex
(though I didn't bite on that). Thanks

--
Add xx to reply

On 04/01/2024 18:09, Zen Cycle wrote:

The purpose of sexual reproduction, or rather the reason sexual
reproduction persists, is a difficult question. I believe that the
current consensus is that it's an anti-parasite adaptation - by
increasing the diversity in the population it gives the parasite a more
fuzzier target to aim at, and reduces the chance of taking out all of an
organisms progeny.
>
>>
>> What sexual reproduction actually is, is an error correction system
>> for Digital Data,
>
> No, it isn't. Error correction is a _part_ of DNA replication, which
> isn't exclusive to sexual reproduction, it occurs in asexual
> reproduction as well.
>
>> similar to checksums or TCP/IP; in fact you could think of it as God's
>> version of TCP/IP.
>
> In order for an analogy to be believable, it has to at at least have
> some semblance to the process being analogized. I'm not seeing much
> similarity between a DNA strand unwinding > base pairing and data
> communication systems. Data duplication would be a better analogy.
>
> Besides that error correction in TCP/IP consists of Parity, CRC, and
> Foward/backward error correction (FEC/BEC), all of which are numerically
> calculated based on the numerical content of the data packets. If
> there's an error,  it doesn't get fixed. The system asks for a
> retransmission (FEC requires redundant packets to begin with). The
> TCP\IP error correction doesn't assess the intent of the data, only that
> there was a discrepancy of the calculated value vs the read value. DNA
> error correction reads the "intent" of the "data", and repairs it to
> what it should be. It's vastly more complicated than simple TCP/IP error
> correction/detection protocols.
>
>> The purpose is precisely to prevent mutations
>
> How's that workin' out for ya?
>
>> and recessive genes
>
> DNA error correction is designed to prevent recessive genes? I wasn't
> aware of that.

He was claiming that sexual reproduction weeds out recessive genes, not
that DNA error correction does. (He wrote "error correction", not "DNA
error correction".)

On the one hand haploid asexual organisms don't have recessive genes,
which at first sight contradicts the claim that the purpose of sexual
reproduction is to prevent recessive genes. (One could entertain the
hypothesis that diploidy evolved to increase organismal resilience to
mutation, and sexual reproduction then evolved to purge recessive genes.)

Just as I am skeptical that there is such as thing as a truly neutral
mutation (rather than one where the selection pressure is swamped by
drift) I am skeptical that there is a purely recessive mutation. However
sexual reproduction does purge *deleterious* recessive alleles, by
exposing them to greater selection pressures in the homozygous state
(the grain of truth in what he wrote). One the other hand it *amplifies*
*beneficial* recessive alleles.

One thing that occurs during sexual reproduction is gene conversion,
where all or part of one allele or paralog is converted to the sequence
of its partner. This is a case where sexual reproduction actually causes
mutations.

Apart from the anti-parasite role, it has been argued that sexual
reproduction is advantageous in that it allows beneficial mutations from
separate lineages to be combined, rather than requiring them to occur
sequentially in a single lineage.

>
>> and basically all of the things that supposedly Drive evolution.
>
> hmmmmm.....You might want to read up on 'selection pressure'. Last I
> knew, DNA replication had little to do with influencing the environment,
> but I could be wrong.

--
alias Ernest Major

On 1/3/24 15:46, panther2020 wrote:
>

>
> What sexual reproduction actually is, is an error correction system for
> Digital Data, similar to checksums or TCP/IP; in fact you could think of
> it as God's version of TCP/IP. The purpose is precisely to prevent
> mutations and recessive genes and basically all of the things that
> supposedly Drive evolution.

Unfortunately, defeating that purpose is not terribly difficult for
those with a mind to do that. All you really need to do is marry and
have children with your own siblings or cousins. Inbreeding in fact
cannot be fixed by economics, it works the same way for rich and poor alike.

You can see a particularly garish example of how it works for poor
people by searching on "Pakistan rat people".

For rich people, search on "Spanish hapsburgs". Those folks had more
than enough money for any rational purpose and it did not help them.
Every single one of them, men and women alike, looked just like the
Frankenstein monster.

On 1/4/2024 3:34 PM, Ernest Major wrote:
> On 04/01/2024 18:09, Zen Cycle wrote:
>
> The purpose of sexual reproduction, or rather the reason sexual
> reproduction persists, is a difficult question. I believe that the
> current consensus is that it's an anti-parasite adaptation - by
> increasing the diversity in the population it gives the parasite a more
> fuzzier target to aim at, and reduces the chance of taking out all of an
> organisms progeny.

AFAIC it's as fuzzy an answers as 'what is the purpose of life'. In any
case the answer is _not_ "it's an error correction system" regardless of
analogies to data communication .

<SNIP>

>>
>>> and recessive genes
>>
>> DNA error correction is designed to prevent recessive genes? I wasn't
>> aware of that.
>
> He was claiming that sexual reproduction weeds out recessive genes, not
> that DNA error correction does. (He wrote "error correction", not "DNA
> error correction".)

That begs the question: Is that to imply that there are other 'error
correction' systems associated with recessive gene suppression besides
DNA error correction, specifically in the context of sexual vs asexual
reproduction? Again, I'm not aware of any.

>

<snip>

>
> One thing that occurs during sexual reproduction is gene conversion,
> where all or part of one allele or paralog is converted to the sequence
> of its partner. This is a case where sexual reproduction actually causes
> mutations. > > Apart from the anti-parasite role, it has been argued that sexual
> reproduction is advantageous in that it allows beneficial mutations from
> separate lineages to be combined, rather than requiring them to occur
> sequentially in a single lineage.

Both paragraphs negate the main gist of the OPs argument that sexual
reproduction _prevents_ mutations

I have no formal training in any field of genetics, feel free to correct
me if I'm wrong.

On Wednesday, January 3, 2024 at 9:47:28 PM UTC, panther2020 wrote:
> First day of school... the 10th grade biology teacher asks the students
> what they believed to be the purpose of sexual reproduction. every hand
> goes up:
>
> " To produce children, so there will always be someone around to mow
> grass, polish cars, put Ikea furniture together, you know, all of the
> things that grown people cannot do terribly well...
>
> However that turns out to be the wrong answer; the right answer is more
> complicated than that. Bacteria manage to reproduce themselves without
> sex and there are other simple creatures that do not participate in
> sexual reproduction.
>
> What sexual reproduction actually is, is an error correction system for
> Digital Data, similar to checksums or TCP/IP; in fact you could think of
> it as God's version of TCP/IP. The purpose is precisely to prevent
> mutations and recessive genes and basically all of the things that
> supposedly Drive evolution. Without sexual reproduction, every living
> thing on Earth above the level bacteria and worms and what not, would be
> dumb, dysfunctional, and ugly like Democrats.

sex leads to cultures to invent dancing, and as dancing is the ultimate purpose of the universe,
this proves creationism is true

On 05/01/2024 11:07, zen cycle wrote:
> On 1/4/2024 3:34 PM, Ernest Major wrote:
>> On 04/01/2024 18:09, Zen Cycle wrote:
>>
>> The purpose of sexual reproduction, or rather the reason sexual
>> reproduction persists, is a difficult question. I believe that the
>> current consensus is that it's an anti-parasite adaptation - by
>> increasing the diversity in the population it gives the parasite a
>> more fuzzier target to aim at, and reduces the chance of taking out
>> all of an organisms progeny.
>
> AFAIC it's as fuzzy an answers as 'what is the purpose of life'. In any
> case the answer is _not_ "it's an error correction system" regardless of
> analogies to data communication .
>
> <SNIP>
>
>>>
>>>> and recessive genes
>>>
>>> DNA error correction is designed to prevent recessive genes? I wasn't
>>> aware of that.
>>
>> He was claiming that sexual reproduction weeds out recessive genes,
>> not that DNA error correction does. (He wrote "error correction", not
>> "DNA error correction".)
>
> That begs the question: Is that to imply that there are other 'error
> correction' systems associated with recessive gene suppression besides
> DNA error correction, specifically in the context of sexual vs asexual
> reproduction? Again, I'm not aware of any.
>
>>
>
> <snip>
>
>>
>> One thing that occurs during sexual reproduction is gene conversion,
>> where all or part of one allele or paralog is converted to the
>> sequence of its partner. This is a case where sexual reproduction
>> actually causes mutations. > > Apart from the anti-parasite role, it
>> has been argued that sexual
>> reproduction is advantageous in that it allows beneficial mutations
>> from separate lineages to be combined, rather than requiring them to
>> occur sequentially in a single lineage.
>
> Both paragraphs negate the main gist of the OPs argument that sexual
> reproduction _prevents_ mutations
>
> I have no formal training in any field of genetics, feel free to correct
> me if I'm wrong.
>

I was mostly agreeing with you (and elaborating) and disagreeing with
him - the grain of truth in what he wrote is that sexual reproduction
increases the rate of elimination of recessive genes from a gene pool
and if you squint at that with an essentialist view of the genome you
could describe that as error correction. I don't think there were any
grains of truth in what he wrote.

(My formal training in biology ended with 8th grade, so I may have even
less formal training in genetics that you do.)

--
alias Ernest Major

On 1/5/2024 6:19 AM, Burkhard wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 3, 2024 at 9:47:28 PM UTC, panther2020 wrote:
>> First day of school... the 10th grade biology teacher asks the students
>> what they believed to be the purpose of sexual reproduction. every hand
>> goes up:
>>
>> " To produce children, so there will always be someone around to mow
>> grass, polish cars, put Ikea furniture together, you know, all of the
>> things that grown people cannot do terribly well...
>>
>> However that turns out to be the wrong answer; the right answer is more
>> complicated than that. Bacteria manage to reproduce themselves without
>> sex and there are other simple creatures that do not participate in
>> sexual reproduction.
>>
>> What sexual reproduction actually is, is an error correction system for
>> Digital Data, similar to checksums or TCP/IP; in fact you could think of
>> it as God's version of TCP/IP. The purpose is precisely to prevent
>> mutations and recessive genes and basically all of the things that
>> supposedly Drive evolution. Without sexual reproduction, every living
>> thing on Earth above the level bacteria and worms and what not, would be
>> dumb, dysfunctional, and ugly like Democrats.
>
> sex leads to cultures to invent dancing, and as dancing is the ultimate purpose of the universe,
> this proves creationism is true
>

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0087277/

--
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