Hi all,

I was concerned to read this:
===========Effective February 22, 2024, Google Groups will no longer support new Usenet content. Posting and subscribing will be disallowed, and new content from Usenet peers will not appear. Viewing and searching of historical data will still be supported as it is done today.
===========
I suppose that the talk.origins group, like the creationism issue generally, are not nearly as big as they were. And of course I hardly post on newsgroups anymore (or much at all, blogging has also decline compared to general fragmented/marketized social media chaos).

But: it would be nice if something continued. Do people have advice / ideas on the following?

1. What are modern news-readers / archives for Usenet, once Google Groups stops doing it?

2. Is creating a talk.origins Google Group, which is purely a Google Group rather than a usenet thing, a feasible option?

(Full disclosure, I still barely understand what usenet is/was, I was not computer-aware until the mid 1990s.)

Cheers!
Nick Matzke

On 2/8/24 3:14 PM, Nick Matzke wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I was concerned to read this:
> ============
> Effective February 22, 2024, Google Groups will no longer support new Usenet content. Posting and subscribing will be disallowed, and new content from Usenet peers will not appear. Viewing and searching of historical data will still be supported as it is done today.
> ============
>
> I suppose that the talk.origins group, like the creationism issue generally, are not nearly as big as they were. And of course I hardly post on newsgroups anymore (or much at all, blogging has also decline compared to general fragmented/marketized social media chaos).
>
> But: it would be nice if something continued. Do people have advice / ideas on the following?
>
> 1. What are modern news-readers / archives for Usenet, once Google Groups stops doing it?
>
> 2. Is creating a talk.origins Google Group, which is purely a Google Group rather than a usenet thing, a feasible option?
>
> (Full disclosure, I still barely understand what usenet is/was, I was not computer-aware until the mid 1990s.)
>
> Cheers!
> Nick Matzke
>
There's hope for us all. The following is copypasta from the
threatening message's "Learn more":

What do I need to do?

If you don’t actively engage with Usenet content, you don’t need to do
anything. Current Usenet users will need to do two things before
February 22, 2024 if they want to continue engaging with Usenet content:

%%%%%
Find a new Usenet client. Several free and paid alternatives are
available, both web-based and application-based. To find a client, do a
web search for "how do I find a usenet text client"

Find a new public Usenet server. The new client you choose will
likely have a default server or a set of curated options for you. If
not, to find a server, do a web search for "public NNTP servers."

Because Usenet is a distributed system, you do not need to migrate data.
All of the Usenet content you can access today on Google Groups should
already be synced to the new server you choose. After you select a new
client and server, you can reselect the groups you’re interested in.
%%%%%%%%

Mozilla's Thunderbird mail app and giganews.com as newsserver work well
for me.

On 2024-02-08 16:14, Nick Matzke wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I was concerned to read this:
> ============
> Effective February 22, 2024, Google Groups will no longer support new Usenet content. Posting and subscribing will be disallowed, and new content from Usenet peers will not appear. Viewing and searching of historical data will still be supported as it is done today.
> ============
>
> I suppose that the talk.origins group, like the creationism issue generally, are not nearly as big as they were. And of course I hardly post on newsgroups anymore (or much at all, blogging has also decline compared to general fragmented/marketized social media chaos).
>
> But: it would be nice if something continued. Do people have advice / ideas on the following?
>
> 1. What are modern news-readers / archives for Usenet, once Google Groups stops doing it?

I'm on a Mac and use a combination of eternal september and thunderbird
to access t.o

> 2. Is creating a talk.origins Google Group, which is purely a Google Group rather than a usenet thing, a feasible option?

I don't really see what the point of this would be. Then there would be
two separate groups operating in parallel, and I (and I suspect most
people who use usenet via a newsreader rather than Google groups) are
unlikely to follow a google group as opposed to a usenet group.

André

--
To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail
service.

On 09/02/2024 00:48, erik simpson wrote:
> On 2/8/24 3:14 PM, Nick Matzke wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I was concerned to read this:
>> ============
>> Effective February 22, 2024, Google Groups will no longer support new
>> Usenet content. Posting and subscribing will be disallowed, and new
>> content from Usenet peers will not appear. Viewing and searching of
>> historical data will still be supported as it is done today.
>> ============
>>
>> I suppose that the talk.origins group, like the creationism issue
>> generally, are not nearly as big as they were. And of course I hardly
>> post on newsgroups anymore (or much at all, blogging has also decline
>> compared to general fragmented/marketized social media chaos).
>>
>> But: it would be nice if something continued.  Do people have advice /
>> ideas on the following?
>>
>> 1. What are modern news-readers / archives for Usenet, once Google
>> Groups stops doing it?
>>
>> 2. Is creating a talk.origins Google Group, which is purely a Google
>> Group rather than a usenet thing, a feasible option?
>>
>> (Full disclosure, I still barely understand what usenet is/was, I was
>> not computer-aware until the mid 1990s.)
>>
>> Cheers!
>> Nick Matzke
>>
> There's hope for us all.  The following is copypasta from the
> threatening message's "Learn more":
>
> What do I need to do?
>
> If you don’t actively engage with Usenet content, you don’t need to do
> anything. Current Usenet users will need to do two things before
> February 22, 2024 if they want to continue engaging with Usenet content:
>
>  %%%%%
>    Find a new Usenet client. Several free and paid alternatives are
> available, both web-based and application-based. To find a client, do a
> web search for "how do I find a usenet text client"
>
>     Find a new public Usenet server. The new client you choose will
> likely have a default server or a set of curated options for you. If
> not, to find a server, do a web search for "public NNTP servers."
>
> Because Usenet is a distributed system, you do not need to migrate data.
> All of the Usenet content you can access today on Google Groups should
> already be synced to the new server you choose. After you select a new
> client and server, you can reselect the groups you’re interested in.
> %%%%%%%%
>
> Mozilla's Thunderbird mail app and giganews.com as newsserver work well
> for me.

I've switched to Thunderbird and a free
subscription to "Eternal September", both
a joke and a "news" server. The joke was
that Usenet used to see new naive participants
when colleges started each year, in September.
Then home internet access started to offer
Usenet, and if you had "AOL" then they
connected their own message service to Usenet.
An "eternal September" began.

Eternal September at <https://www.eternal-september.org>
lets you download messages since late 2013.
I suggest you don't do that. When I finish
reading new messages, it starts showing me
the oldest ones... from 2013.

You don't have to set up Thunderbird
for e-mail, to use it for Usenet.
You Don have to respect Eternsl September
user rules, such as "do not send spam".

I think Erik's message is written for
"Google Groups" users. Google Groups
exists and will continue as a separate
service, but it won't receive new messages
from Usenet or transmit messages to Usenet.
So it's not quite right to say that "If you
don't actively engage with Usenet content",
that you aren't affected. There will not be
New messages to read in talk.origins at Google.

I think thst one or more of talk.origins users
did previously set up their own separate groups
in Google Groups. Just to talk to themselves,
we assume. I can't speak for anyone else but
I will prefer to use the real talk.origins
on Usenet.

erik simpson <eastside.erik@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2/8/24 3:14 PM, Nick Matzke wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I was concerned to read this:
>> ============
>> Effective February 22, 2024, Google Groups will no longer support new
>> Usenet content. Posting and subscribing will be disallowed, and new
>> content from Usenet peers will not appear. Viewing and searching of
>> historical data will still be supported as it is done today.
>> ============
>>
>> I suppose that the talk.origins group, like the creationism issue
>> generally, are not nearly as big as they were. And of course I hardly
>> post on newsgroups anymore (or much at all, blogging has also decline
>> compared to general fragmented/marketized social media chaos).
>>
>> But: it would be nice if something continued. Do people have advice /
>> ideas on the following?
>>
>> 1. What are modern news-readers / archives for Usenet, once Google Groups stops doing it?
>>
>> 2. Is creating a talk.origins Google Group, which is purely a Google
>> Group rather than a usenet thing, a feasible option?
>>
>> (Full disclosure, I still barely understand what usenet is/was, I was
>> not computer-aware until the mid 1990s.)
>>
>> Cheers!
>> Nick Matzke
>>
> There's hope for us all. The following is copypasta from the
> threatening message's "Learn more":
>
> What do I need to do?
>
> If you don’t actively engage with Usenet content, you don’t need to do
> anything. Current Usenet users will need to do two things before
> February 22, 2024 if they want to continue engaging with Usenet content:
>
> %%%%%
> Find a new Usenet client. Several free and paid alternatives are
> available, both web-based and application-based. To find a client, do a
> web search for "how do I find a usenet text client"
>
> Find a new public Usenet server. The new client you choose will
> likely have a default server or a set of curated options for you. If
> not, to find a server, do a web search for "public NNTP servers."
>
> Because Usenet is a distributed system, you do not need to migrate data.
> All of the Usenet content you can access today on Google Groups should
> already be synced to the new server you choose. After you select a new
> client and server, you can reselect the groups you’re interested in.
> %%%%%%%%
>
> Mozilla's Thunderbird mail app and giganews.com as newsserver work well
> for me.
>
Was Google Groups’ demise because of this?:

https://groups.google.com/g/sci.bio.paleontology/c/gi4TlIokEgY
posted 12-9-23

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Groups
“On December 15, 2023, Google announced that Google Groups would end
support posting or viewing new Usenet content on February 22, 2024, with
existing archives remaining available.[6]”

https://support.google.com/groups/answer/11036538
“Much of the content being disseminated via Usenet today is binary
(non-text) file sharing, which Google Groups does not support, as well as
spam.”

Given the many projects Google started then abandoned like Google+ and
Glasshole I am amazed their support for Google Groups lasted this long:
https://www.businessinsider.com/google-glass-axed-again-interest-augmented-reality-plummets-2023-3
: “The original Google Glass was axed in 2015, and reintroduced as a
business-focused product in 2017.”

Google Graveyard:

https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/26/20977968/google-graveyard-products-shut-down-dead-not-supported-discontinues-spring-cleaning/archives/2

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Discontinued_Google_services

https://www.popsci.com/technology/google-discontinued-products/

On Thu, 8 Feb 2024 16:48:39 -0800, erik simpson
<eastside.erik@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 2/8/24 3:14 PM, Nick Matzke wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I was concerned to read this:
>> ===========>> Effective February 22, 2024, Google Groups will no longer support new Usenet content. Posting and subscribing will be disallowed, and new content from Usenet peers will not appear. Viewing and searching of historical data will still be supported as it is done today.
>> ===========>>
>> I suppose that the talk.origins group, like the creationism issue generally, are not nearly as big as they were. And of course I hardly post on newsgroups anymore (or much at all, blogging has also decline compared to general fragmented/marketized social media chaos).
>>
>> But: it would be nice if something continued. Do people have advice / ideas on the following?
>>
>> 1. What are modern news-readers / archives for Usenet, once Google Groups stops doing it?
>>
>> 2. Is creating a talk.origins Google Group, which is purely a Google Group rather than a usenet thing, a feasible option?
>>
>> (Full disclosure, I still barely understand what usenet is/was, I was not computer-aware until the mid 1990s.)
>>
>> Cheers!
>> Nick Matzke
>>
>There's hope for us all. The following is copypasta from the
>threatening message's "Learn more":
>
>What do I need to do?
>
>If you don’t actively engage with Usenet content, you don’t need to do
>anything. Current Usenet users will need to do two things before
>February 22, 2024 if they want to continue engaging with Usenet content:
>
> %%%%%
> Find a new Usenet client. Several free and paid alternatives are
>available, both web-based and application-based. To find a client, do a
>web search for "how do I find a usenet text client"
>
> Find a new public Usenet server. The new client you choose will
>likely have a default server or a set of curated options for you. If
>not, to find a server, do a web search for "public NNTP servers."
>
>Because Usenet is a distributed system, you do not need to migrate data.
>All of the Usenet content you can access today on Google Groups should
>already be synced to the new server you choose. After you select a new
>client and server, you can reselect the groups you’re interested in.
>%%%%%%%%
>
>Mozilla's Thunderbird mail app and giganews.com as newsserver work well
>for me.

Most free Usenet servers are no longer active. However,
eternal-september and solani are still up and work reasonably well. My
experience is that pay Usenet servers are no more reliable wrt being
online and capturing posts, than the free Usenet servers.

--
To know less than we don't know is the nature of most knowledge

On 2/8/24 5:47 PM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On 09/02/2024 00:48, erik simpson wrote:
>> On 2/8/24 3:14 PM, Nick Matzke wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I was concerned to read this:
>>> ============
>>> Effective February 22, 2024, Google Groups will no longer support new
>>> Usenet content. Posting and subscribing will be disallowed, and new
>>> content from Usenet peers will not appear. Viewing and searching of
>>> historical data will still be supported as it is done today.
>>> ============
>>>
>>> I suppose that the talk.origins group, like the creationism issue
>>> generally, are not nearly as big as they were. And of course I hardly
>>> post on newsgroups anymore (or much at all, blogging has also decline
>>> compared to general fragmented/marketized social media chaos).
>>>
>>> But: it would be nice if something continued.  Do people have advice
>>> / ideas on the following?
>>>
>>> 1. What are modern news-readers / archives for Usenet, once Google
>>> Groups stops doing it?
>>>
>>> 2. Is creating a talk.origins Google Group, which is purely a Google
>>> Group rather than a usenet thing, a feasible option?
>>>
>>> (Full disclosure, I still barely understand what usenet is/was, I was
>>> not computer-aware until the mid 1990s.)
>>>
>>> Cheers!
>>> Nick Matzke
>>>
>> There's hope for us all.  The following is copypasta from the
>> threatening message's "Learn more":
>>
>> What do I need to do?
>>
>> If you don’t actively engage with Usenet content, you don’t need to do
>> anything. Current Usenet users will need to do two things before
>> February 22, 2024 if they want to continue engaging with Usenet content:
>>
>>   %%%%%
>>     Find a new Usenet client. Several free and paid alternatives are
>> available, both web-based and application-based. To find a client, do
>> a web search for "how do I find a usenet text client"
>>
>>      Find a new public Usenet server. The new client you choose will
>> likely have a default server or a set of curated options for you. If
>> not, to find a server, do a web search for "public NNTP servers."
>>
>> Because Usenet is a distributed system, you do not need to migrate
>> data. All of the Usenet content you can access today on Google Groups
>> should already be synced to the new server you choose. After you
>> select a new client and server, you can reselect the groups you’re
>> interested in.
>> %%%%%%%%
>>
>> Mozilla's Thunderbird mail app and giganews.com as newsserver work
>> well for me.
>
> I've switched to Thunderbird and a free
> subscription to "Eternal September", both
> a joke and a "news" server.  The joke was
> that Usenet used to see new naive participants
> when colleges started each year, in September.
> Then home internet access started to offer
> Usenet, and if you had "AOL" then they
> connected their own message service to Usenet.
> An "eternal September" began.
>
> Eternal September at <https://www.eternal-september.org>
> lets you download messages since late 2013.
> I suggest you don't do that.  When I finish
> reading new messages, it starts showing me
> the oldest ones...  from 2013.
>
> You don't have to set up Thunderbird
> for e-mail, to use it for Usenet.
> You Don have to respect Eternsl September
> user rules, such as "do not send spam".
>
> I think Erik's message is written for
> "Google Groups" users.  Google Groups
> exists and will continue as a separate
> service, but it won't receive new messages
> from Usenet or transmit messages to Usenet.
> So it's not quite right to say that "If you
> don't actively engage with Usenet content",
> that you aren't affected.  There will not be
> New messages to read in talk.origins at Google.
>
> I think thst one or more of talk.origins users
> did previously set up their own separate groups
> in Google Groups.  Just to talk to themselves,
> we assume.  I can't speak for anyone else but
> I will prefer to use the real talk.origins
> on Usenet.
>
I too had problems with Eternal September. That's why I switched to
giganews even though it isn't free. Don't start reading at the
beginning. There's almost 2 million entries in TO and it bogs down the
reader.

On 2/9/24 3:14 AM, jillery wrote:
> On Thu, 8 Feb 2024 16:48:39 -0800, erik simpson
> <eastside.erik@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2/8/24 3:14 PM, Nick Matzke wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I was concerned to read this:
>>> ============
>>> Effective February 22, 2024, Google Groups will no longer support new Usenet content. Posting and subscribing will be disallowed, and new content from Usenet peers will not appear. Viewing and searching of historical data will still be supported as it is done today.
>>> ============
>>>
>>> I suppose that the talk.origins group, like the creationism issue generally, are not nearly as big as they were. And of course I hardly post on newsgroups anymore (or much at all, blogging has also decline compared to general fragmented/marketized social media chaos).
>>>
>>> But: it would be nice if something continued. Do people have advice / ideas on the following?
>>>
>>> 1. What are modern news-readers / archives for Usenet, once Google Groups stops doing it?
>>>
>>> 2. Is creating a talk.origins Google Group, which is purely a Google Group rather than a usenet thing, a feasible option?
>>>
>>> (Full disclosure, I still barely understand what usenet is/was, I was not computer-aware until the mid 1990s.)
>>>
>>> Cheers!
>>> Nick Matzke
>>>
>> There's hope for us all. The following is copypasta from the
>> threatening message's "Learn more":
>>
>> What do I need to do?
>>
>> If you don’t actively engage with Usenet content, you don’t need to do
>> anything. Current Usenet users will need to do two things before
>> February 22, 2024 if they want to continue engaging with Usenet content:
>>
>> %%%%%
>> Find a new Usenet client. Several free and paid alternatives are
>> available, both web-based and application-based. To find a client, do a
>> web search for "how do I find a usenet text client"
>>
>> Find a new public Usenet server. The new client you choose will
>> likely have a default server or a set of curated options for you. If
>> not, to find a server, do a web search for "public NNTP servers."
>>
>> Because Usenet is a distributed system, you do not need to migrate data.
>> All of the Usenet content you can access today on Google Groups should
>> already be synced to the new server you choose. After you select a new
>> client and server, you can reselect the groups you’re interested in.
>> %%%%%%%%
>>
>> Mozilla's Thunderbird mail app and giganews.com as newsserver work well
>> for me.
>
>
> Most free Usenet servers are no longer active. However,
> eternal-september and solani are still up and work reasonably well. My
> experience is that pay Usenet servers are no more reliable wrt being
> online and capturing posts, than the free Usenet servers.
>
> --
> To know less than we don't know is the nature of most knowledge
>
I also tried solani. Some problems, pretty much like e-s.

erik simpson <eastside.erik@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 2/8/24 5:47 PM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> > On 09/02/2024 00:48, erik simpson wrote:
> >> On 2/8/24 3:14 PM, Nick Matzke wrote:
> >>> Hi all,
> >>>
> >>> I was concerned to read this:
> >>> ============
> >>> Effective February 22, 2024, Google Groups will no longer support new
> >>> Usenet content. Posting and subscribing will be disallowed, and new
> >>> content from Usenet peers will not appear. Viewing and searching of
> >>> historical data will still be supported as it is done today.
> >>> ============
> >>>
> >>> I suppose that the talk.origins group, like the creationism issue
> >>> generally, are not nearly as big as they were. And of course I hardly
> >>> post on newsgroups anymore (or much at all, blogging has also decline
> >>> compared to general fragmented/marketized social media chaos).
> >>>
> >>> But: it would be nice if something continued. Do people have advice
> >>> / ideas on the following?
> >>>
> >>> 1. What are modern news-readers / archives for Usenet, once Google
> >>> Groups stops doing it?
> >>>
> >>> 2. Is creating a talk.origins Google Group, which is purely a Google
> >>> Group rather than a usenet thing, a feasible option?
> >>>
> >>> (Full disclosure, I still barely understand what usenet is/was, I was
> >>> not computer-aware until the mid 1990s.)
> >>>
> >>> Cheers!
> >>> Nick Matzke
> >>>
> >> There's hope for us all. The following is copypasta from the
> >> threatening message's "Learn more":
> >>
> >> What do I need to do?
> >>
> >> If you don't actively engage with Usenet content, you don't need to do
> >> anything. Current Usenet users will need to do two things before
> >> February 22, 2024 if they want to continue engaging with Usenet content:
> >>
> >> %%%%%
> >> Find a new Usenet client. Several free and paid alternatives are
> >> available, both web-based and application-based. To find a client, do
> >> a web search for "how do I find a usenet text client"
> >>
> >> Find a new public Usenet server. The new client you choose will
> >> likely have a default server or a set of curated options for you. If
> >> not, to find a server, do a web search for "public NNTP servers."
> >>
> >> Because Usenet is a distributed system, you do not need to migrate
> >> data. All of the Usenet content you can access today on Google Groups
> >> should already be synced to the new server you choose. After you
> >> select a new client and server, you can reselect the groups you're
> >> interested in.
> >> %%%%%%%%
> >>
> >> Mozilla's Thunderbird mail app and giganews.com as newsserver work
> >> well for me.
> >
> > I've switched to Thunderbird and a free
> > subscription to "Eternal September", both
> > a joke and a "news" server. The joke was
> > that Usenet used to see new naive participants
> > when colleges started each year, in September.
> > Then home internet access started to offer
> > Usenet, and if you had "AOL" then they
> > connected their own message service to Usenet.
> > An "eternal September" began.
> >
> > Eternal September at <https://www.eternal-september.org>
> > lets you download messages since late 2013.
> > I suggest you don't do that. When I finish
> > reading new messages, it starts showing me
> > the oldest ones... from 2013.
> >
> > You don't have to set up Thunderbird
> > for e-mail, to use it for Usenet.
> > You Don have to respect Eternsl September
> > user rules, such as "do not send spam".
> >
> > I think Erik's message is written for
> > "Google Groups" users. Google Groups
> > exists and will continue as a separate
> > service, but it won't receive new messages
> > from Usenet or transmit messages to Usenet.
> > So it's not quite right to say that "If you
> > don't actively engage with Usenet content",
> > that you aren't affected. There will not be
> > New messages to read in talk.origins at Google.
> >
> > I think thst one or more of talk.origins users
> > did previously set up their own separate groups
> > in Google Groups. Just to talk to themselves,
> > we assume. I can't speak for anyone else but
> > I will prefer to use the real talk.origins
> > on Usenet.
> >
> I too had problems with Eternal September. That's why I switched to
> giganews even though it isn't free. Don't start reading at the
> beginning. There's almost 2 million entries in TO and it bogs down the
> reader.

Sort by date, and mark all but the last month as 'Read'
takes care of that,

Jan

On Fri, 9 Feb 2024 22:15:04 +0100
nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:

> erik simpson <eastside.erik@gmail.com> wrote:
>
[]
> > I too had problems with Eternal September. That's why I switched to
> > giganews even though it isn't free. Don't start reading at the
> > beginning. There's almost 2 million entries in TO and it bogs down the
> > reader.
>
> Sort by date, and mark all but the last month as 'Read'
> takes care of that,
>
> Jan
>

But, but, then how will newcomers learn all the background on 'who said
what' in the fights from 10 or more years ago that are still on-going?

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

"Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> writes:

> On Fri, 9 Feb 2024 22:15:04 +0100
> nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:
>
>> erik simpson <eastside.erik@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
> []
>> > I too had problems with Eternal September. That's why I switched to
>> > giganews even though it isn't free. Don't start reading at the
>> > beginning. There's almost 2 million entries in TO and it bogs down the
>> > reader.
>>
>> Sort by date, and mark all but the last month as 'Read'
>> takes care of that,
>>
>> Jan
>>
>
> But, but, then how will newcomers learn all the background on 'who said
> what' in the fights from 10 or more years ago that are still on-going?

There is:

https://talk.origins.narkive.com/

Which says the first post was 21 years ago, but I haven't gone back to
see if it is actually in the archive.

Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:

> On Fri, 9 Feb 2024 22:15:04 +0100
> nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:
>
> > erik simpson <eastside.erik@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> []
> > > I too had problems with Eternal September. That's why I switched to
> > > giganews even though it isn't free. Don't start reading at the
> > > beginning. There's almost 2 million entries in TO and it bogs down the
> > > reader.
> >
> > Sort by date, and mark all but the last month as 'Read'
> > takes care of that,
>
> But, but, then how will newcomers learn all the background on 'who said
> what' in the fights from 10 or more years ago that are still on-going?

No problem, in the last month they will all have said
all the same things that they were saying ten years ago,

Jan

On 2/10/24 1:33 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> On Fri, 9 Feb 2024 22:15:04 +0100
> nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:
>
>> erik simpson <eastside.erik@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
> []
>>> I too had problems with Eternal September. That's why I switched to
>>> giganews even though it isn't free. Don't start reading at the
>>> beginning. There's almost 2 million entries in TO and it bogs down the
>>> reader.
>>
>> Sort by date, and mark all but the last month as 'Read'
>> takes care of that,
>>
>> Jan
>>
>
> But, but, then how will newcomers learn all the background on 'who said
> what' in the fights from 10 or more years ago that are still on-going?
>
>
>
Not having any record of who said what ten years ago is better than
having such a record.

On Sat, 10 Feb 2024 08:15:06 -0800, erik simpson
<eastside.erik@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 2/10/24 1:33 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
>> On Fri, 9 Feb 2024 22:15:04 +0100
>> nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:
>>
>>> erik simpson <eastside.erik@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>> []
>>>> I too had problems with Eternal September. That's why I switched to
>>>> giganews even though it isn't free. Don't start reading at the
>>>> beginning. There's almost 2 million entries in TO and it bogs down the
>>>> reader.
>>>
>>> Sort by date, and mark all but the last month as 'Read'
>>> takes care of that,
>>>
>>> Jan
>>>
>>
>> But, but, then how will newcomers learn all the background on 'who said
>> what' in the fights from 10 or more years ago that are still on-going?
>>
>>
>>
>Not having any record of who said what ten years ago is better than
>having such a record.

Better for who? l suppose for the trolls who like to lie about what
they posted.

--
To know less than we don't know is the nature of most knowledge

On 2/10/24 8:52 PM, jillery wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Feb 2024 08:15:06 -0800, erik simpson
> <eastside.erik@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2/10/24 1:33 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
>>> On Fri, 9 Feb 2024 22:15:04 +0100
>>> nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:
>>>
>>>> erik simpson <eastside.erik@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>> []
>>>>> I too had problems with Eternal September. That's why I switched to
>>>>> giganews even though it isn't free. Don't start reading at the
>>>>> beginning. There's almost 2 million entries in TO and it bogs down the
>>>>> reader.
>>>>
>>>> Sort by date, and mark all but the last month as 'Read'
>>>> takes care of that,
>>>>
>>>> Jan
>>>>
>>>
>>> But, but, then how will newcomers learn all the background on 'who said
>>> what' in the fights from 10 or more years ago that are still on-going?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Not having any record of who said what ten years ago is better than
>> having such a record.
>
>
> Better for who? l suppose for the trolls who like to lie about what
> they posted.
>
> --
> To know less than we don't know is the nature of most knowledge
>
I'll suppose it's just a matter of interest. I haven't any in old
trolls, and very little in new ones.

erik simpson <eastside.erik@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 2/10/24 1:33 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> > On Fri, 9 Feb 2024 22:15:04 +0100
> > nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:
> >
> >> erik simpson <eastside.erik@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> > []
> >>> I too had problems with Eternal September. That's why I switched to
> >>> giganews even though it isn't free. Don't start reading at the
> >>> beginning. There's almost 2 million entries in TO and it bogs down the
> >>> reader.
> >>
> >> Sort by date, and mark all but the last month as 'Read'
> >> takes care of that,
> >>
> >> Jan
> >>
> >
> > But, but, then how will newcomers learn all the background on 'who said
> > what' in the fights from 10 or more years ago that are still on-going?
> >
> >
> >
> Not having any record of who said what ten years ago is better than
> having such a record.

Nothing wrong with having a record, but why look at it?

Jan

To add, my perception of the purpose
of talk.origins is that people who want
to argue creationism in other groups
that exist to discuss real science,
those people were to be told to come
here instead of there for that.

Another function, perhaps, is to protect
the general public from it, as well.

There is something of a "general public"
still on Usenet, but new members with and
without creationist beliefs are rare.
So what and where should an online
talk.origins as a public drain or sewer
be established? And is the need served?

How about an AI chat-bot?

On Sat, 10 Feb 2024 21:57:01 -0800, erik simpson
<eastside.erik@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 2/10/24 8:52 PM, jillery wrote:
>> On Sat, 10 Feb 2024 08:15:06 -0800, erik simpson
>> <eastside.erik@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/10/24 1:33 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 9 Feb 2024 22:15:04 +0100
>>>> nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> erik simpson <eastside.erik@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>> []
>>>>>> I too had problems with Eternal September. That's why I switched to
>>>>>> giganews even though it isn't free. Don't start reading at the
>>>>>> beginning. There's almost 2 million entries in TO and it bogs down the
>>>>>> reader.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sort by date, and mark all but the last month as 'Read'
>>>>> takes care of that,
>>>>>
>>>>> Jan
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But, but, then how will newcomers learn all the background on 'who said
>>>> what' in the fights from 10 or more years ago that are still on-going?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Not having any record of who said what ten years ago is better than
>>> having such a record.
>>
>>
>> Better for who? l suppose for the trolls who like to lie about what
>> they posted.
>>
>> --
>> To know less than we don't know is the nature of most knowledge
>>
>I'll suppose it's just a matter of interest. I haven't any in old
>trolls, and very little in new ones.

What you call a lack of interest, I call willful blindness.

--
To know less than we don't know is the nature of most knowledge

Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@gmail.com> wrote:
> To add, my perception of the purpose
> of talk.origins is that people who want
> to argue creationism in other groups
> that exist to discuss real science,
> those people were to be told to come
> here instead of there for that.
>
> Another function, perhaps, is to protect
> the general public from it, as well.
>
> There is something of a "general public"
> still on Usenet, but new members with and
> without creationist beliefs are rare.
> So what and where should an online
> talk.origins as a public drain or sewer
> be established? And is the need served?
>
> How about an AI chat-bot?
>
Channelling Gould there is the distinction to be made between historical
origin and current utility of t.o. which may be as an arcane or esoteric
refuge from post-Web 2.0 shitholes:
https://www.ft.com/content/6fb1602d-a08b-4a8c-bac0-047b7d64aba5

With the eclipse of Google Groups at least some of the spam will subside.

It can remain as a niche for old-timers before the bolide hits each of
us…that got dark.

J. J. Lodder <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:
> erik simpson <eastside.erik@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2/10/24 1:33 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
>>> On Fri, 9 Feb 2024 22:15:04 +0100
>>> nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:
>>>
>>>> erik simpson <eastside.erik@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>> []
>>>>> I too had problems with Eternal September. That's why I switched to
>>>>> giganews even though it isn't free. Don't start reading at the
>>>>> beginning. There's almost 2 million entries in TO and it bogs down the
>>>>> reader.
>>>>
>>>> Sort by date, and mark all but the last month as 'Read'
>>>> takes care of that,
>>>>
>>>> Jan
>>>>
>>>
>>> But, but, then how will newcomers learn all the background on 'who said
>>> what' in the fights from 10 or more years ago that are still on-going?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Not having any record of who said what ten years ago is better than
>> having such a record.
>
> Nothing wrong with having a record, but why look at it?
>
To point out pervasive injustice.

On 2/11/24 8:20 AM, *Hemidactylus* wrote:
> J. J. Lodder <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:
>> erik simpson <eastside.erik@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/10/24 1:33 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 9 Feb 2024 22:15:04 +0100
>>>> nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> erik simpson <eastside.erik@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>> []
>>>>>> I too had problems with Eternal September. That's why I switched to
>>>>>> giganews even though it isn't free. Don't start reading at the
>>>>>> beginning. There's almost 2 million entries in TO and it bogs down the
>>>>>> reader.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sort by date, and mark all but the last month as 'Read'
>>>>> takes care of that,
>>>>>
>>>>> Jan
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But, but, then how will newcomers learn all the background on 'who said
>>>> what' in the fights from 10 or more years ago that are still on-going?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Not having any record of who said what ten years ago is better than
>>> having such a record.
>>
>> Nothing wrong with having a record, but why look at it?
>>
> To point out pervasive injustice.
>
I don't see what injustice is involved. Intelligent things were said
many years ago, as well as a lot of not-so-inteligent things. My own
remarks were directing at old trolling and new trolling. Some of the
old trolls are still here, not too different from the new ones.

On 09/02/2024 09:35, *Hemidactylus* wrote:
> erik simpson <eastside.erik@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 2/8/24 3:14 PM, Nick Matzke wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I was concerned to read this:
>>> ============
>>> Effective February 22, 2024, Google Groups will no longer support new
>>> Usenet content. Posting and subscribing will be disallowed, and new
>>> content from Usenet peers will not appear. Viewing and searching of
>>> historical data will still be supported as it is done today.
>>> ============
>>>
>>> I suppose that the talk.origins group, like the creationism issue
>>> generally, are not nearly as big as they were. And of course I hardly
>>> post on newsgroups anymore (or much at all, blogging has also decline
>>> compared to general fragmented/marketized social media chaos).
>>>
>>> But: it would be nice if something continued. Do people have advice /
>>> ideas on the following?
>>>
>>> 1. What are modern news-readers / archives for Usenet, once Google Groups stops doing it?
>>>
>>> 2. Is creating a talk.origins Google Group, which is purely a Google
>>> Group rather than a usenet thing, a feasible option?
>>>
>>> (Full disclosure, I still barely understand what usenet is/was, I was
>>> not computer-aware until the mid 1990s.)
>>>
>>> Cheers!
>>> Nick Matzke
>>>
>> There's hope for us all. The following is copypasta from the
>> threatening message's "Learn more":
>>
>> What do I need to do?
>>
>> If you don’t actively engage with Usenet content, you don’t need to do
>> anything. Current Usenet users will need to do two things before
>> February 22, 2024 if they want to continue engaging with Usenet content:
>>
>> %%%%%
>> Find a new Usenet client. Several free and paid alternatives are
>> available, both web-based and application-based. To find a client, do a
>> web search for "how do I find a usenet text client"
>>
>> Find a new public Usenet server. The new client you choose will
>> likely have a default server or a set of curated options for you. If
>> not, to find a server, do a web search for "public NNTP servers."
>>
>> Because Usenet is a distributed system, you do not need to migrate data.
>> All of the Usenet content you can access today on Google Groups should
>> already be synced to the new server you choose. After you select a new
>> client and server, you can reselect the groups you’re interested in.
>> %%%%%%%%
>>
>> Mozilla's Thunderbird mail app and giganews.com as newsserver work well
>> for me.
>>
> Was Google Groups’ demise because of this?:
>
> https://groups.google.com/g/sci.bio.paleontology/c/gi4TlIokEgY
> posted 12-9-23

I have fantasised at length and in detail
about doing terrible things to the spammers.
Physically.

On 2/12/24 5:49 AM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On 09/02/2024 09:35, *Hemidactylus* wrote:
>> erik simpson <eastside.erik@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 2/8/24 3:14 PM, Nick Matzke wrote:
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> I was concerned to read this:
>>>> ============
>>>> Effective February 22, 2024, Google Groups will no longer support new
>>>> Usenet content. Posting and subscribing will be disallowed, and new
>>>> content from Usenet peers will not appear. Viewing and searching of
>>>> historical data will still be supported as it is done today.
>>>> ============
>>>>
>>>> I suppose that the talk.origins group, like the creationism issue
>>>> generally, are not nearly as big as they were. And of course I hardly
>>>> post on newsgroups anymore (or much at all, blogging has also decline
>>>> compared to general fragmented/marketized social media chaos).
>>>>
>>>> But: it would be nice if something continued.  Do people have advice /
>>>> ideas on the following?
>>>>
>>>> 1. What are modern news-readers / archives for Usenet, once Google
>>>> Groups stops doing it?
>>>>
>>>> 2. Is creating a talk.origins Google Group, which is purely a Google
>>>> Group rather than a usenet thing, a feasible option?
>>>>
>>>> (Full disclosure, I still barely understand what usenet is/was, I was
>>>> not computer-aware until the mid 1990s.)
>>>>
>>>> Cheers!
>>>> Nick Matzke
>>>>
>>> There's hope for us all.  The following is copypasta from the
>>> threatening message's "Learn more":
>>>
>>> What do I need to do?
>>>
>>> If you don’t actively engage with Usenet content, you don’t need to do
>>> anything. Current Usenet users will need to do two things before
>>> February 22, 2024 if they want to continue engaging with Usenet content:
>>>
>>>   %%%%%
>>>     Find a new Usenet client. Several free and paid alternatives are
>>> available, both web-based and application-based. To find a client, do a
>>> web search for "how do I find a usenet text client"
>>>
>>>      Find a new public Usenet server. The new client you choose will
>>> likely have a default server or a set of curated options for you. If
>>> not, to find a server, do a web search for "public NNTP servers."
>>>
>>> Because Usenet is a distributed system, you do not need to migrate data.
>>> All of the Usenet content you can access today on Google Groups should
>>> already be synced to the new server you choose. After you select a new
>>> client and server, you can reselect the groups you’re interested in.
>>> %%%%%%%%
>>>
>>> Mozilla's Thunderbird mail app and giganews.com as newsserver work well
>>> for me.
>>>
>> Was Google Groups’ demise because of this?:
>>
>> https://groups.google.com/g/sci.bio.paleontology/c/gi4TlIokEgY
>> posted 12-9-23
>
> I have fantasised at length and in detail
> about doing terrible things to the spammers.
> Physically.
>
Spam is just the internet equivalent of junk mail. Toss it in the trash
and forget it.

On Sun, 11 Feb 2024 10:22:40 +0100, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
Lodder):

>erik simpson <eastside.erik@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2/10/24 1:33 AM, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
>> > On Fri, 9 Feb 2024 22:15:04 +0100
>> > nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:
>> >
>> >> erik simpson <eastside.erik@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> > []
>> >>> I too had problems with Eternal September. That's why I switched to
>> >>> giganews even though it isn't free. Don't start reading at the
>> >>> beginning. There's almost 2 million entries in TO and it bogs down the
>> >>> reader.
>> >>
>> >> Sort by date, and mark all but the last month as 'Read'
>> >> takes care of that,
>> >>
>> >> Jan
>> >>
>> >
>> > But, but, then how will newcomers learn all the background on 'who said
>> > what' in the fights from 10 or more years ago that are still on-going?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> Not having any record of who said what ten years ago is better than
>> having such a record.
>
>Nothing wrong with having a record, but why look at it?
>
No reason, obviously. But as long as there are those like
The Math Professor Who Shall Remain Nameless who obsesses
over every post ever made which in any way involve him, and
many which don't, and repost sections of them in exhaustive
(and exhausting) detail, I'll go along with Erik. "Get Over
It" by the Eagles comes to mind...
>
--

Bob C.

"The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries, is not
'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'"

- Isaac Asimov

On Sun, 11 Feb 2024 12:51:41 +0000, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by Robert Carnegie
<rja.carnegie@gmail.com>:

>To add, my perception of the purpose
>of talk.origins is that people who want
>to argue creationism in other groups
>that exist to discuss real science,
>those people were to be told to come
>here instead of there for that.
>
Correct; I recall something like "to keep the loons away
from the real science groups".
>
>Another function, perhaps, is to protect
>the general public from it, as well.
>
>There is something of a "general public"
>still on Usenet, but new members with and
>without creationist beliefs are rare.
>So what and where should an online
>talk.origins as a public drain or sewer
>be established? And is the need served?
>
>How about an AI chat-bot?
>
No.
>
--

Bob C.

"The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries, is not
'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'"

- Isaac Asimov