Sorry but I'm not going to reply to a thread called Uefa Farmersliga
Semi finals .

So, it looks like the miracle of last year's Man City was short lived.
Bacl to business as usual. Real know how to win big games and get to
the upper stages and possibly win it again. Ancelotti is a pragmatist
who pretty often wins against stronger teams, and all the rest.

I haven't seen the quarter against City but I hear City dominated,
created chances but couldn't score. Sounds familiar. Looks like they're
quickly turning into Barcelona 2, under Guardiola. Hopefully it won't
be like this and Pep finds a way to make them win again, for the good
of football. But this year it's over.

As for the game, it was so-so. The result seemed fair. I have to say,
absolutely brilliant pass by Kroos at the first goal.

FF wrote:

> Sorry but I'm not going to reply to a thread called Uefa Farmersliga
> Semi finals .
>
> So, it looks like the miracle of last year's Man City was short lived.
> Bacl to business as usual. Real know how to win big games and get to
> the upper stages and possibly win it again. Ancelotti is a pragmatist
> who pretty often wins against stronger teams, and all the rest.
>
> I haven't seen the quarter against City but I hear City dominated,
> created chances but couldn't score. Sounds familiar. Looks like
> they're quickly turning into Barcelona 2, under Guardiola. Hopefully
> it won't be like this and Pep finds a way to make them win again, for
> the good of football. But this year it's over.
>
> As for the game, it was so-so. The result seemed fair. I have to say,
> absolutely brilliant pass by Kroos at the first goal.

Of course this refers to the first semi-final, Bayern - Real 2 - 2.

FF wrote:

> FF wrote:
> >
> > As for the game, it was so-so. The result seemed fair. I
> > have to say, absolutely brilliant pass by Kroos at the first
> > goal.
>
> Of course this refers to the first semi-final, Bayern - Real 2
> - 2.

Not the most exciting game to watch but I also thought 2-2 was a
fair result. The tie is set up nicely for the second leg next
week.

Bellingham looked a bit off-form though so hopefully he's fully
fit for the second leg. This could either way.

FF wrote:

> As for the game, it was so-so. The result seemed fair. I have to say,
> absolutely brilliant pass by Kroos at the first goal.

Second semi looked a bit better. Some neat technical and speedy field
play on both sides. A few unbelievable misses, again on both sides.
Borussia won 1 - 0 but PSG should be slight favorites in the return
leg. Likewise Real, of course. Let's see. The germans are far from
being written off and they always can produce surprises. (It's a very
good year for german teams in the UCL anyway.)

FF wrote:

> FF wrote:
>
> > As for the game, it was so-so. The result seemed fair. I have to
> > say, absolutely brilliant pass by Kroos at the first goal.
>
> Second semi looked a bit better. Some neat technical and speedy field
> play on both sides. A few unbelievable misses, again on both sides.
> Borussia won 1 - 0 but PSG should be slight favorites in the return
> leg. Likewise Real, of course. Let's see. The germans are far from
> being written off and they always can produce surprises. (It's a very
> good year for german teams in the UCL anyway.)

Looks like the first german team made it to the final. In a few hours
we'll see if there is a second one too.
But it was a lucky win. If just 2 of those many woodwork hits by PSG
had gone in, we'd probably have a different conversation. Besides, I
had the impression that at least one of their penalty calls could have
been deserved (not very clear though and I don't have time any more to
look at it in detail).

On 2024-05-08 11:20, FF wrote:
> FF wrote:
>
>> FF wrote:
>>
>>> As for the game, it was so-so. The result seemed fair. I have to
>>> say, absolutely brilliant pass by Kroos at the first goal.
>>
>> Second semi looked a bit better. Some neat technical and speedy field
>> play on both sides. A few unbelievable misses, again on both sides.
>> Borussia won 1 - 0 but PSG should be slight favorites in the return
>> leg. Likewise Real, of course. Let's see. The germans are far from
>> being written off and they always can produce surprises. (It's a very
>> good year for german teams in the UCL anyway.)
>
> Looks like the first german team made it to the final. In a few hours
> we'll see if there is a second one too.
> But it was a lucky win. If just 2 of those many woodwork hits by PSG
> had gone in, we'd probably have a different conversation. Besides, I
> had the impression that at least one of their penalty calls could have
> been deserved (not very clear though and I don't have time any more to
> look at it in detail).

I think Mbappe really was held back enough for a penalty to be given.
The other one may well have been outside the area (which is what the ref
decided) and anyway was a dive in my book - player sought contact with
Hummels's leg and threw himself dramatically to the ground.

Hakimi should have been sent off. Deserved a yellow for a blatant dive
in the area, and then pushed Schlotterbeck over (I think it was
Schlotterbeck) without provocation, while making contact with his head.

MH wrote:

> On 2024-05-08 11:20, FF wrote:
> > But it was a lucky win. If just 2 of those many woodwork hits by PSG
> > had gone in, we'd probably have a different conversation. Besides, I
> > had the impression that at least one of their penalty calls could
> > have been deserved (not very clear though and I don't have time any
> > more to look at it in detail).
>
> I think Mbappe really was held back enough for a penalty to be given.
> The other one may well have been outside the area (which is what the
> ref decided) and anyway was a dive in my book - player sought contact
> with Hummels's leg and threw himself dramatically to the ground.

The one of Mbappe was what I meant too. But I think he might have beem
the first one to use his arms.
The other one looked clearly outside the box. Pretty close but outside.

As for Mbappe, at the end nobody held him back so he tripped by
himself. :) They were really unlucky. But that's football.

FF wrote:
>
> Looks like the first german team made it to the final. In a few hours
> we'll see if there is a second one too.
> But it was a lucky win. If just 2 of those many woodwork hits by PSG
> had gone in, we'd probably have a different conversation. Besides, I
> had the impression that at least one of their penalty calls could have
> been deserved (not very clear though and I don't have time any more to
> look at it in detail).

It wasn't to be.

Excellent game.
Both teams fought well. In the end the masters of the comeback turned
the result around again.

It was also a demonstration of the video ref. They had 3 or 4 difficult
calls to make and got all of them right. This would definitely never
have happened before the video ref. (I'd like to see Blatter come and
tell us again that football needs a human face. And many more others.)

I have to say, in the UCL the refereeing finally seems to be more or
less where it should be. Unlike what I saw at the World Cup.

FF wrote:

> FF wrote:
>>
>> Looks like the first german team made it to the final. In a few hours
>> we'll see if there is a second one too.
>> But it was a lucky win. If just 2 of those many woodwork hits by PSG
>> had gone in, we'd probably have a different conversation. Besides, I
>> had the impression that at least one of their penalty calls could have
>> been deserved (not very clear though and I don't have time any more to
>> look at it in detail).

> It wasn't to be.

> Excellent game.
> Both teams fought well. In the end the masters of the comeback turned
> the result around again.

> It was also a demonstration of the video ref. They had 3 or 4 difficult
> calls to make and got all of them right. This would definitely never
> have happened before the video ref. (I'd like to see Blatter come and
> tell us again that football needs a human face. And many more others.)

> I have to say, in the UCL the refereeing finally seems to be more or
> less where it should be. Unlike what I saw at the World Cup.

Not sure if it actually went to VAR but what about the position near the end where Bayern seemed to be wrongly flagged for offside, cancelling out a passage of play where they placed the ball in the net for what would have been the equaliser? That didn't look like a fair decision to me.

RM

Real_Mardin wrote:

> FF wrote:
>
> > FF wrote:
> > >
> > > Looks like the first german team made it to the final. In a few
> > > hours we'll see if there is a second one too.
> > > But it was a lucky win. If just 2 of those many woodwork hits by
> > > PSG had gone in, we'd probably have a different conversation.
> > > Besides, I had the impression that at least one of their penalty
> > > calls could have been deserved (not very clear though and I don't
> > > have time any more to look at it in detail).
>
> > It wasn't to be.
>
> > Excellent game.
> > Both teams fought well. In the end the masters of the comeback
> > turned the result around again.
>
> > It was also a demonstration of the video ref. They had 3 or 4
> > difficult calls to make and got all of them right. This would
> > definitely never have happened before the video ref. (I'd like to
> > see Blatter come and tell us again that football needs a human
> > face. And many more others.)
>
> > I have to say, in the UCL the refereeing finally seems to be more or
> > less where it should be. Unlike what I saw at the World Cup.
>
>
> Not sure if it actually went to VAR but what about the position near
> the end where Bayern seemed to be wrongly flagged for offside,
> cancelling out a passage of play where they placed the ball in the
> net for what would have been the equaliser? That didn't look like a
> fair decision to me.
>
>
> RM

It didn't go to the VAR. And I looked carefully and it did seem offside
to me, a very close one. I agree the ref shouldn't have whistled and
then should have asked the VAR, but I think it was offside.
In any case, if it wasn't we'll hear much about it in the next hours
and days.

FF wrote:

> Real_Mardin wrote:

>> FF wrote:
>>
>> > FF wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Looks like the first german team made it to the final. In a few
>> > > hours we'll see if there is a second one too.
>> > > But it was a lucky win. If just 2 of those many woodwork hits by
>> > > PSG had gone in, we'd probably have a different conversation.
>> > > Besides, I had the impression that at least one of their penalty
>> > > calls could have been deserved (not very clear though and I don't
>> > > have time any more to look at it in detail).
>>
>> > It wasn't to be.
>>
>> > Excellent game.
>> > Both teams fought well. In the end the masters of the comeback
>> > turned the result around again.
>>
>> > It was also a demonstration of the video ref. They had 3 or 4
>> > difficult calls to make and got all of them right. This would
>> > definitely never have happened before the video ref. (I'd like to
>> > see Blatter come and tell us again that football needs a human
>> > face. And many more others.)
>>
>> > I have to say, in the UCL the refereeing finally seems to be more or
>> > less where it should be. Unlike what I saw at the World Cup.
>>
>>
>> Not sure if it actually went to VAR but what about the position near
>> the end where Bayern seemed to be wrongly flagged for offside,
>> cancelling out a passage of play where they placed the ball in the
>> net for what would have been the equaliser? That didn't look like a
>> fair decision to me.
>>
>>
>> RM

> It didn't go to the VAR. And I looked carefully and it did seem offside
> to me, a very close one. I agree the ref shouldn't have whistled and
> then should have asked the VAR, but I think it was offside.
> In any case, if it wasn't we'll hear much about it in the next hours
> and days.

Well I don’t think he was offside and all the presenters and pundits on TNT Sports thought the linesman got the call wrong and that the Bayern player wasn’t offside. Don’t understand why VAR wasn’t consulted, particularly in light of how VAR had been used minutes before to turn an offside call into a goal for Real Madrid.

Tuchel told TNT Sports after the match that the linesman apologised to him, but of course an apology doesn’t put the matter right.

RM

On 2024-05-09 11:39, Real_Mardin wrote:
> FF wrote:
>
>> Real_Mardin wrote:
>
>>> FF wrote:
>>>
>>> > FF wrote:
>>> > > > > Looks like the first german team made it to the final. In a few
>>> > > hours we'll see if there is a second one too.
>>> > > But it was a lucky win. If just 2 of those many woodwork hits by
>>> > > PSG had gone in, we'd probably have a different conversation.
>>> > > Besides, I had the impression that at least one of their penalty
>>> > > calls could have been deserved (not very clear though and I don't
>>> > > have time any more to look at it in detail).
>>>
>>> > It wasn't to be.
>>>
>>> > Excellent game.
>>> > Both teams fought well. In the end the masters of the comeback
>>> > turned the result around again.
>>>
>>> > It was also a demonstration of the video ref. They had 3 or 4
>>> > difficult calls to make and got all of them right. This would
>>> > definitely never have happened before the video ref. (I'd like to
>>> > see Blatter come and tell us again that football needs a human
>>> > face. And many more others.)
>>>
>>> > I have to say, in the UCL the refereeing finally seems to be more or
>>> > less where it should be. Unlike what I saw at the World Cup.
>>>
>>>
>>> Not sure if it actually went to VAR but what about the position near
>>> the end where Bayern seemed to be wrongly flagged for offside,
>>> cancelling out a passage of play where they placed the ball in the
>>> net for what would have been the equaliser? That didn't look like a
>>> fair decision to me.
>>>
>>>
>>> RM
>
>> It didn't go to the VAR. And I looked carefully and it did seem offside
>> to me, a very close one. I agree the ref shouldn't have whistled and
>> then should have asked the VAR, but I think it was offside.
>> In any case, if it wasn't we'll hear much about it in the next hours
>> and days.
>
> Well I don’t think he was offside and all the presenters and pundits on
> TNT Sports thought the linesman got the call wrong and that the Bayern
> player wasn’t offside. Don’t understand why VAR wasn’t consulted,
> particularly in light of how VAR had been used minutes before to turn an
> offside call into a goal for Real Madrid.
>
> Tuchel told TNT Sports after the match that the linesman apologised to
> him, but of course an apology doesn’t put the matter right.

Not the linesman's fault, at least not entirely. The ref does not have
to blow his whistle when a linesman flags, but this one did. Having
done so before the ball went into the goal, there was apparently no
recourse to VAR possible.

This loss is on Neuer, though. Even the best make dumb mistakes, I guess.
>
> RM

MH wrote:

> Not the linesman's fault, at least not entirely. The ref does not have
> to blow his whistle when a linesman flags, but this one did. Having
> done so before the ball went into the goal, there was apparently no
> recourse to VAR possible.

https://twitter.com/DaleJohnsonESPN/status/1788498793672897018?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

This thread argues that the linesman did the correct thing in raising the flag, and the blame is squarely on the referee for blowing the whistle.

My impression is that Mazraoui was marginally offside, but we'll never know. The Real Madrid/Bernabeu mystique is really something to behold (even though, truth be told, if Bayern had managed to come out on top yesterday it would have been daylight robbery)

Futbolmetrix wrote:

> MH wrote:
>
> > Not the linesman's fault, at least not entirely. The ref does not
> > have to blow his whistle when a linesman flags, but this one did.
> > Having done so before the ball went into the goal, there was
> > apparently no recourse to VAR possible.
>
>
https://twitter.com/DaleJohnsonESPN/status/1788498793672897018?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
>
> This thread argues that the linesman did the correct thing in raising
> the flag, and the blame is squarely on the referee for blowing the
> whistle.
>
> My impression is that Mazraoui was marginally offside, but we'll
> never know. The Real Madrid/Bernabeu mystique is really something to
> behold (even though, truth be told, if Bayern had managed to come out
> on top yesterday it would have been daylight robbery)

In any case, it's a difficult situation. From the video on the Net
(it's the same everywhere, at least that's what I found) it's still
hard to tell. The clear things are that
1. It's not the VARs fault.
2. It's the ref's fault for not consulting the VAR. That much is clear.
I guess they're still learning. I still think the rerfereeing was good
over-all (in part because I don't think it was in fact offside).

Futbolmetrix wrote:

> MH wrote:
>
> > Not the linesman's fault, at least not entirely. The ref does not
> > have to blow his whistle when a linesman flags, but this one did.
> > Having done so before the ball went into the goal, there was
> > apparently no recourse to VAR possible.
>
>
https://twitter.com/DaleJohnsonESPN/status/1788498793672897018?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
>
> This thread argues that the linesman did the correct thing in raising
> the flag, and the blame is squarely on the referee for blowing the
> whistle.

I think the linesman has his part of the fault, because even if it was
it was very small. He could and probably should have ignored it.

FF wrote:

> Futbolmetrix wrote:
>
> > MH wrote:
> >
> > > Not the linesman's fault, at least not entirely. The ref does not
> > > have to blow his whistle when a linesman flags, but this one did.
> > > Having done so before the ball went into the goal, there was
> > > apparently no recourse to VAR possible.
> >
> >
>
https://twitter.com/DaleJohnsonESPN/status/1788498793672897018?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
> >
> > This thread argues that the linesman did the correct thing in
> > raising the flag, and the blame is squarely on the referee for
> > blowing the whistle.
>
> I think the linesman has his part of the fault, because even if it was
> it was very small. He could and probably should have ignored it.

I'm thinking, possibly the best thing to do would be that the linesmen
just don't call offsides any more, in matches with VAR. If it doesn't
result in a goal it doesn't matter, and if it does it will be reviewed
by the video ref. (I might have said something like this on my site 10
years ago.)

FF wrote:

> Futbolmetrix wrote:
> >
> > My impression is that Mazraoui was marginally offside, but
> > we'll never know. The Real Madrid/Bernabeu mystique is
> > really something to behold (even though, truth be told, if
> > Bayern had managed to come out on top yesterday it would
> > have been daylight robbery)
>
> In any case, it's a difficult situation. From the video on the
> Net (it's the same everywhere, at least that's what I found)
> it's still hard to tell. The clear things are that
> 1. It's not the VARs fault.
> 2. It's the ref's fault for not consulting the VAR. That much
> is clear. I guess they're still learning. I still think the
> rerfereeing was good over-all (in part because I don't think
> it was in fact offside).

They did a still photo on one of the sports channels where the
line was drawn [by them] to the boot of Rudiger and Mazraoui was
onside, but it was very very tight... so the assistant ref on
the nearside should not have raised his flag. (Which might be
why he apologised.) It's all irrelevant now though... and the
main reason that Bayern Munich did not reach the 2024 Champions
League Final is because of Manuel Neuer's butter-fingers!

"FF" <...@yahoo.com> writes:

> 1. It's not the VARs fault.
> 2. It's the ref's fault for not consulting the VAR. That much is clear.
> I guess they're still learning. I still think the rerfereeing was good
> over-all (in part because I don't think it was in fact offside).

Never refereed with VAR, but it is always very hard for the center
referee to override a (trusted) assistant's call.

When refereeing at an amateur/semi-pro level, the highest I ever did,
there is no referee crew that works together consistently, and thus one
can get on thorny situations working with an assistant or center referee
that doesn't do things "properly". Believe me.

The crew on this game certainly has worked together at this high level,
and probably many other lower levels, many times. There is a high level
of trust between them.

The "fault", if one really wants to blame someone, is really on the
assistant referee here, as he didn't follow protocol or, more likely,
believed that one of the Bayern players is "obviously" offside.

If you look at the replay, the pass comes from a little behind the
halfway line, on the other side of the field from the assistant's point
of view, to a couple of players near the top of the penalty box (an the
one player that doesn't touch the ball is probably offside). This is a
hard call to judge, as by the time that the assistant turns his head
from where he is looking at the pass, to where the players are some 40
yards downfield, players could have moved several meters/yards.

He raises his flag, the center referee, who is no position to override
him, trusts him and whistles. The FIFA referee on the CBS/Paramount
post broadcast analysis claims that the center referee errored, but that
is an ipso facto statement, most high level center referees would have
done the same. I know I would, I "know" that my assistant is certain
that was offside and not a situation that he would let play go on to be
further analyzed by VAR.

Once the referee whistles the play is over. Speculation of what would
happen if there was no whistle, i.e. would a goal even be scored, are
pointless. There is nothing VAR could have done, nor is it useful to
consult with VAR at that point. What do you want them to do, award the
goal?

-- HASM

HASM wrote:

> The "fault", if one really wants to blame someone, is really on the
> assistant referee here, as he didn't follow protocol or, more likely,
> believed that one of the Bayern players is "obviously" offside.

Dale Johnson argues that the AR *did* follow protocol: you should delay raising the flag only if the ball actually reaches the intended target, who was in an offside position, and then raise the flag when the play is over. Because the ball never reached Mazraoui, the "play" was over, and the AR raised the flag.

Then it's up to the discretion of the referee whether to blow the whistle immediately or not.

> Once the referee whistles the play is over. Speculation of what would
> happen if there was no whistle, i.e. would a goal even be scored, are
> pointless. There is nothing VAR could have done, nor is it useful to
> consult with VAR at that point. What do you want them to do, award the
> goal?

No discussion about this.

Futbolmetrix wrote:

> HASM wrote:
>
>
> > The "fault", if one really wants to blame someone, is really on the
> > assistant referee here, as he didn't follow protocol or, more
> > likely, believed that one of the Bayern players is "obviously"
> > offside.
>
> Dale Johnson argues that the AR did follow protocol: you should delay
> raising the flag only if the ball actually reaches the intended
> target, who was in an offside position, and then raise the flag when
> the play is over. Because the ball never reached Mazraoui, the "play"
> was over, and the AR raised the flag.

This seems really stupid.
Are you sure the condition is that the ball reaches the target player ?
Seems to me the reasonable thing to do is, regardless whether the
offside player actually touches the ball, wait until the play is over
before raising the flag, to avoid being wrong and spoiling a goal (as
was the case here). The play was certainly not over. It's over when
things have calmed down or the other side has firm control of the ball.

In any case it seems hugely commplicated. Linesmen are human too. My
guess is, as I said, the simple thing that they can actually do is to
not flag for offside any more and let the video ref decide it if
necessary. They probably aren't yet ready to admit it and try other
solutions that are impossibly complicated.

HASM wrote:

> "FF" <...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> > 1. It's not the VARs fault.
> > 2. It's the ref's fault for not consulting the VAR. That much is
> > clear. I guess they're still learning. I still think the
> > rerfereeing was good over-all (in part because I don't think it was
> > in fact offside).
>
> Never refereed with VAR, but it is always very hard for the center
> referee to override a (trusted) assistant's call.
>
> When refereeing at an amateur/semi-pro level, the highest I ever did,
> there is no referee crew that works together consistently, and thus
> one can get on thorny situations working with an assistant or center
> referee that doesn't do things "properly". Believe me.
>
> The crew on this game certainly has worked together at this high
> level, and probably many other lower levels, many times. There is a
> high level of trust between them.
>
> The "fault", if one really wants to blame someone, is really on the
> assistant referee here, as he didn't follow protocol or, more likely,
> believed that one of the Bayern players is "obviously" offside.
>
> If you look at the replay, the pass comes from a little behind the
> halfway line, on the other side of the field from the assistant's
> point of view, to a couple of players near the top of the penalty box
> (an the one player that doesn't touch the ball is probably offside).
> This is a hard call to judge, as by the time that the assistant turns
> his head from where he is looking at the pass, to where the players
> are some 40 yards downfield, players could have moved several
> meters/yards.
>
> He raises his flag, the center referee, who is no position to override
> him, trusts him and whistles. The FIFA referee on the CBS/Paramount
> post broadcast analysis claims that the center referee errored, but
> that is an ipso facto statement, most high level center referees
> would have done the same. I know I would, I "know" that my assistant
> is certain that was offside and not a situation that he would let
> play go on to be further analyzed by VAR.
>
> Once the referee whistles the play is over. Speculation of what would
> happen if there was no whistle, i.e. would a goal even be scored, are
> pointless. There is nothing VAR could have done, nor is it useful to
> consult with VAR at that point. What do you want them to do, award
> the goal?
>
> -- HASM

No question the AR made an error. He was certain that there was an
offside when in fact there wasn't. The problem is, sometimes this type
of error happens, otherwise there would be no wrong offside call (only
wrong offside non-calls). As we know, in practice there are, aven if
rare at the upper levels. Always have, always will.

Now, without the VAR, things are probably more or less as you say and
the ref has not much to do than to trust his linesman, except in
special circumstances.
With the video ref, one of the goals is (or should be) to avoid such a
situation as much as possible. How can that be, if the assistant raises
the flag because he is (wrongly) certain and the central immediately
whistles because he trusts the assistant ? You're telling us these
situations cannot be avoided, even with the vidoe ref. I don't think
this is how they view it. And we've learned in recent days that there
is indeed a special protocol for such situations with a VAR present.
Which is, one or both the refs involved should delay call until the
play is over. My guess is both, to minimise the possibility of error.
But the AR is certain of the offside else he wouldn't flag, so he is
inclined to forget about the protocol and raise it immediately. It
makes even more sense to require the ref too to ignore the flag until
the play is over.

In any case, as I said this is an additional level of complication on
both refs (especially the linesman). I'm betting in the end they'll
come to senses and let offside be judged only by the video ref, as I
said.