In Search of Thomas St John, of Charing Kent. Related names Cotton, Savage, Langham, Arundell
I am trying to find the ancestry of Thomas St John of Charing in Kent, and think that I have made a breakthrough.
This note is as short as possible and if anyone wants more detail on any of the references then please let me know.
I hope that names in bold are direct ancestors.
I consider myself to be descended from the marriage of Richard Cotton (c1480- aft 1534), of Hamstall Ridware (Staffordshire) and Johanna St John (c 1476 -1534), daughter of Thomas St John of Charing, (Kent).
The marriage above is documented on the sides of an Altar Tomb in Hamstall Ridware Church, dedicated to John Cotton (-c1478) and Joanna Fitzherbert of Norbury (c1435-c 1525), and lists brief details of their 15 children. This Altar Tomb must have been erected in the lifetime of their children as it lists some that died early and who are not documented elsewhere. If anyone wants a copy of the transcriptions on the side of the Altar Tomb then please let me know.
The relevant wording for Richard Cotton is “Richard mar Jahne one of the daughters and heirs to Thomas St John of Charyng in Kent, also to Alis daughter to Gilbert Savage.”
The wording for Richard’s elder brother John Cotton is “John mar Alice, daughter and heir to Richard Langham, of Langham, co Suffolk”
The fact that Alice Langham was married first to Thomas St John, is not covered above, but is clearly shown via the Langham of Langham family tree shown in Muskett’s Suffolk Manorial Families.
At this point, the following extra information is available
• Alice Langham and Thomas St John married in 1473
• There were 4 daughters; Joanna, Bridget (married William Waller), Elizabeth (married John Haward), and NN
• The manors shown for Thomas (Panfield and Hempstead, both in Essex) were those of his wife Alice, so she must have had some wealth. No mention of Charing in Kent, so assume that Thomas did not then have a connection with Charing.
• Thomas died around 1478/9 ( 4 daughters after 1473 v Alice marriage to John in 1481)
• Alice subsequently married John Cotton in 1481. John was born c 1460, Alice probably c1455, and a new family of Cottons arose in Panfield
• Richard Cotton was the youngest surviving brother of John Cotton, and married Joanna the daughter of Alice Langham and Thomas St John
A great deal of personal research about St John families in Charing, Kent turned up absolutely nothing about Thomas and very little about the St John family. This includes;
• Edward Hasted’s History and Topographicial Survey of the County of Kent, Vol 7(1798) describes “…..Burleigh or Burley Manor,( Charing) came into the possession of the St Johns who bore for their arms Argent, a mullet sable on a chief gules, three mullets pierced of the first. At length Avis daughter of William St John of Charing carried it in marriage to Humphry Barrey esq who afterwards dwelt here, and was from hence styled Barrey, of Charing. But it does not seem to have remained long in this name, for it soon afterwards came into the possession of a family, called Dallingridge, of eminent note in Hampshire, whose arms were Argent, a cross engailed, gules; and Sir Edward Dallingridge by fine levied in the first year of King Richard II (1377), passed it away to Roger Dallingridge and Alice his wife, and they not long afterwards conveyed it by sale to Thomas Brockhull of Calehill….”. Few dates and vague. But see later on
• Edward St John of Barlavington (who was also the Edward St John of Kent covered later on) is shown as a debtor on 21/10/1390 with a debt proven against William Best, the elder, of Charing in Kent
• A Canterbury Will existed for an Edward St John of Charing in 1457. In latin OK, but the script was hard for me to read. But see later on.
In the course of this research I learned a lot about the various St John lines. This is not the place or space to describe how the various lines fit in with each other, and how so many Johns, Edwards, Olivers, and Alexanders with similar dates have resulted in so many inconsistent family trees, even the professionally family trees!
This research proved useful in helping my wife’s research her own St John ancestors, where the most recent example was the Barbara St John of Bletso who married Thomas William Coventry, the 6th Earl of Coventry.
During 2015 a long discussion evolved in Soc Gen Med about the five Sir Edward St Johns who were alive at the same time during the 1300’s and included the mention of a Sir Edward St John, “of Kent” died before 1398, who married Alice (died 1422) the widow of Roger Dallingridge. Alice was said to own many manors in Kent. My research showed that Burleigh Manor, Charing was one of those and transferred to Roger and Alice Dallingridge in 1377. Roger Dallingridge died in 1380, and Alice subsequently married Sir Edward St John. I am taking Edward Hasted’s words “not long afterwards” meaning as before Roger Dallingridge’s death, so the manor of Burleigh almost made it back to the St Johns before being sold off again. But Edward St John did have dealings in Charing as judged by the debitor note above.
If “my” Thomas St John of Charing had any connection with Burleigh Manor (even if he did not own it) there is some circumstantial evidence that Thomas was somehow descended from the marriage of Sir Edward St John of Kent and Alice. But I just needed to find the descent to Thomas.
Alas, I have not found this link. Edward St John (-1398) and Alice had a son William (-1437) who had a son John, who had a daughter Elizabeth, so no obvious way through to the dates for Thomas St John. If anyone has better information than this, then please let me know.
It seemed a brick wall.
Amongst the Canterbury Wills was one for Edward St John of Charing in Kent who died in 1457 (probate date 22/12/1457) and who just might have been Thomas’s father. This Will was in latin and was translated for me by an expert at Devon Heritage Centre in Exeter.
Edward St John of Charing (-1457) proved also to be Edward St John of East Luccombe and Selworthy (-1457), both on the Devon/Somerset border! Edward’s will makes various gifts to the churches in these villages, leaves a house to his servant, and leaves the estate to his eldest son William. If you want a copy of the will then please let me know.
I was not expecting this, so research took off in a new direction.
The St Johns of East Luccombe are described in ;
• Wikipedia (very briefly)
• Geni (very patchy)
• The Parish of Selworthy in the county of Somerset, by Frederick Hancock (vicar)
• St John of Bletsoe by John Brownbill (1931)
• St John Genealogy Project (which includes a large number of original sources)
• Stirnet and Complete Peerage cover the St Johns of Fonmon and Lageham. Luccombe is not specifically mentioned, but some of the names mentioned may also be from Instow and Luccombe.
Lots of words and at least two printed family trees of the St John family of Luccombe, which unfortunately differ.
There is a Thomas St John in one of the family trees, who was born in 1430 with sp written beside the name. SP means Sine Prole means no children? Not Sans Pareil! Thomas must have been c 43 when he married Alice Langham, so there is scope for an earlier marriage without children, or a very late marriage. It all depends on what information was available when the family tree was put together, in a situation where his two siblings were much higher profile. Thomas’s parents were Edward St John (18/2/1395 -1457) and Joan le Jewe (c 1400-) daughter of William and Alice le Jewe.
The case for Thomas depends on;
• Dates are right
• “Of Charing” is shared with Edward St John, who is shown as his father in the family tree
• he had a mother called Joan(ne), a sister called Joan(na) and a daughter called Joan(na).
• Reference to Thomas (and Joanna) in the provision made by Edward St John
Just need to understand the sp. Perhaps it was sp at the point when William dies in 1473.
Edward and Joan had children as follows;
• William St John, (c1420 – 20/9/1473) married Alice. Before leaving his property to William, Edward had made provision for his two younger children Joanna and Thomas
• Joanna St John (c 1425-5/6/1482) married Nicholas de Arundell of Trerice in Cornwall and received William’s property on the death of William’s widow Alice. East Luccombe and Selworthy were held by the Arundell family for hundreds of years until being passed by marriage to the Wentworth family (1768) and then the Acland family (1802) of Holnicot and Killerton. Selworthy and East Luccombe are now owned by the National Trust, following Sir Richard Acland’s gift in 1944.
• Thomas St John (c1430-) sp. See above
I have not yet found the document detailing the provision made by Edward for Thomas and it very possible that it was the property owned by Edward in Charing and where he died in 1457. It may just be coincidence that Burleigh Manor was also situated in Charing?
Edward’s father was Henry St John (c 1336- 24/9/1406), who married Isabelle with children as follows;
• Edward St John, (18/2/1395 – 1457) who married Joan Jewe (c 1400) daughter of William and Alice Jewe. Edward has left a will, filed under Edward St John of Charing. Edward had perfectly good properties in East Luccombe/Selworthy, so why is he titled “of Charing” for the purpose of his will?
Henry St John was the youngest son of Alexander St John and Margaret Arundell who was one of the Cornish family, and not a family member from the FitzAlan earls of Arundel.
• Sir Oliver St John (c1320-1373) who married Elizabeth Luccombe, had son John who married another Elizabeth and died abroad, without legitimate offspring. Other family trees give Oliver a second wife after Elizabeth’s death and a line that leads to the St John’s of Bletso. See below
• John St John c1322-bef 1380
• Alexandra St John c1324 -1375
• Theobald St John c 1330- bef 1380
• Henry St John c 1336 – 24/9/1406. IPM writ 10/10/1406 Exeter
After Alexander’s (aft 1351) and Oliver’s (8/1373) death, and the death of Oliver’s son John abroad in his father’s lifetime, Henry had outlived all of his siblings and took possession of the manors of East Luccombe and Selworthy. John’s widow Elizabeth tried to dispute this but without success; Henry remained in possession. Henry also held Stockleigh Luccombe in socage of the heirs of William Baggeputz by the service of one pair of white spurs.
The detail here comes from membrane 13 Nov 2 1339, Kennington;
• Licence for Alexander de Sancto Johanne and Elizabeth (widow of Hugh Luccombe) his wife and Oliver De Sancto Johanne and Elizabeth (Luccombe) his wife to Enfeoff Richard de Morcastre, parson of the church of Luccombe, of the manor of East Luccombe co Somerset, and the advowsons of the churches of Luccombe and Selworthy, held in chief as of the honour of Pynkeneye, and for him to re-grant the same to the said Alexander and Elizabeth his wife for life, with successive remainders in tail to Oliver and Elizabeth his wife, to John, Theobald and Henry, sons of the said Alexander, and reversion to the right heirs of the said John.
The Honour of Pinkney was owned by Hugh de Luccombe
Several sources suggest that the St Johns of Instow and Luccombe are the same as the St Johns of Fonmon/Faumont in Glamorgan. So I tried to make the data above fit what is known about the Fonmon St Johns.
Elizabeth Luccombe was born on 5 May 1320, as this date was attested before she married Oliver St John so there is one fixed date. The birth date of 1346 for Oliver suggested by several web sites seems far too late, allowing little time for Elizabeth Luccombe’s early death, a second marriage to Elizabeth Delabere and a son, another John who presented as an adult to Instow church in 1379 and 1387. One source even suggests a birthdate for the younger John of 1383 ie after Oliver’s death!
The 1346 birth date for Oliver seems to cause an extra generation to be added, allowing a Sir John St John who married Elizabeth Paveley, before the Alexander St John who married Elizabeth Umfreville, except that Alexander was called John who seems to have the same dates and wife as Alexander! Brownbill suggested that it was Collins who suggested the name of John, and this has been widely copied.
What is needed is a definitive family tree for the St Johns of Fonmon. Help!
Then I noticed that the St Johns Genealogy web site suggests Alexander as the son of Sir John St John of Lageham, 1st baron, so I have extended Alexander’s family to reflect this option.
..
*********************************************************************
Alexander St John, of Instow and East Luccombe, c1286- aft 1351. Born Stanton St John, Oxon. Died in Instow, Devon. Alexander married first Margaret Arundell (mother of the children), and then Elizabeth widow of Hugh Luccombe (-1323), whose daughter and heiress Elizabeth (1320-) married Alexander’s eldest son Sir Oliver (1320-1373).
The St John Project web site claims that Alexander was the youngest son of Sir John de St John, first baron St John of Lageham (c1255 – bef 7/1316). Although called baron of Lageham, in Surrey, they lived in Stanton St John, Oxfordshire. A major extra landholding in Swallowfield came by Roger St John’s (John’s father) marriage to a Despenser heir.
Many primary records are included within the St John Project web site and I have been very selective in including the following. These records have to tie a specific St John to a specific area.
One outstanding query relates to the wife shown for the first baron shown as Beatrix Broye, who I thought was married to a John de St John (c 1267 -aft 1346) of the Fonmon/Faumont line. Stirnet shows the wife of the first baron as Margaret, and Geni as Maud FitzNigel.
There are two references confirming that John de St John of Lageham held Instow (near Barnstaple, Devon)
1296 held the fee of Instow. J Brownbill art cit 356 Cardiff Records Vol 1 (Cardiff 1898) 264
1316 held the fee of Instow. Inquisitions and Assessments related to Feudal Aids 1284-1431 Vol (London 1899), 372, 375
Children as follows;
• John de St John, 2nd baron. C1276 (Lageham) died 16/6/1332
• William de St John. (c1278 – c 1353)
• Nicholas of Glympton, (c 1279 -1362)
• Thomas St John. (c1280 – c 1360) Died in Lageham
• Henry St John (c 1283- 1309). Cleric of Doddicombsleigh, Devon
• Laurence St John, ( c1284 -aft 1308) Hellestone, Devon
• Edward St John (c 1285- aft 1312) Tawstock, Devon
• Alexander St John (c 1286 -aft 1351), born Stanton St John. Templar?, died Instow
Alexander St John references
• 1307. Alexander son of John of Staunton (Stanton?) to grant land in Eversholt to the Abbot and convent of Woburn, Beds .
• 1316 Inherited Instow from his father?
• 1318 The Register of Bishop Grandisson (Instow). Alexander de Sancto Johanne presents to Instow
• 1333 Tawstock (near Barnstaple)“Alexander de Sancto Johanne, Knight Templar. Most curious of all, just outside Barnstaple lies a chapel of St John, very near to the interestingly named village of Templeton, the parish records of which list one Alexander de Sancto Johanne as being a regular attendee at the chapel and describes him as a Knight Templar, which is odd because the records are dated 1333, 20 years after the Templars were supposed to have been forced to leave the order or be imprisoned”.
• 2/11/1339 Alexander St John was granted East Luccombe on his marriage to Elizabeth Luccombe, and his son Oliver’s marriage to her daughter.
• 1351 The register of Bishop Grandisson (for Instow). This is far later than the dates for the John/Alexander St John of Fonmon.

On Monday, October 3, 2022 at 8:04:35 AM UTC-7, Colin Piper wrote:
> In Search of Thomas St John, of Charing Kent. Related names Cotton, Savage, Langham, Arundell
> I am trying to find the ancestry of Thomas St John of Charing in Kent, and think that I have made a breakthrough.
> This note is as short as possible and if anyone wants more detail on any of the references then please let me know.
> I hope that names in bold are direct ancestors.
> I consider myself to be descended from the marriage of Richard Cotton (c1480- aft 1534), of Hamstall Ridware (Staffordshire) and Johanna St John (c 1476 -1534), daughter of Thomas St John of Charing, (Kent).
> The marriage above is documented on the sides of an Altar Tomb in Hamstall Ridware Church, dedicated to John Cotton (-c1478) and Joanna Fitzherbert of Norbury (c1435-c 1525), and lists brief details of their 15 children. This Altar Tomb must have been erected in the lifetime of their children as it lists some that died early and who are not documented elsewhere. If anyone wants a copy of the transcriptions on the side of the Altar Tomb then please let me know.
> The relevant wording for Richard Cotton is “Richard mar Jahne one of the daughters and heirs to Thomas St John of Charyng in Kent, also to Alis daughter to Gilbert Savage.”
> The wording for Richard’s elder brother John Cotton is “John mar Alice, daughter and heir to Richard Langham, of Langham, co Suffolk”
> The fact that Alice Langham was married first to Thomas St John, is not covered above, but is clearly shown via the Langham of Langham family tree shown in Muskett’s Suffolk Manorial Families.
> At this point, the following extra information is available
> • Alice Langham and Thomas St John married in 1473
> • There were 4 daughters; Joanna, Bridget (married William Waller), Elizabeth (married John Haward), and NN
> • The manors shown for Thomas (Panfield and Hempstead, both in Essex) were those of his wife Alice, so she must have had some wealth. No mention of Charing in Kent, so assume that Thomas did not then have a connection with Charing.
> • Thomas died around 1478/9 ( 4 daughters after 1473 v Alice marriage to John in 1481)
> • Alice subsequently married John Cotton in 1481. John was born c 1460, Alice probably c1455, and a new family of Cottons arose in Panfield
> • Richard Cotton was the youngest surviving brother of John Cotton, and married Joanna the daughter of Alice Langham and Thomas St John
> A great deal of personal research about St John families in Charing, Kent turned up absolutely nothing about Thomas and very little about the St John family. This includes;
> • Edward Hasted’s History and Topographicial Survey of the County of Kent, Vol 7(1798) describes “…..Burleigh or Burley Manor,( Charing) came into the possession of the St Johns who bore for their arms Argent, a mullet sable on a chief gules, three mullets pierced of the first. At length Avis daughter of William St John of Charing carried it in marriage to Humphry Barrey esq who afterwards dwelt here, and was from hence styled Barrey, of Charing. But it does not seem to have remained long in this name, for it soon afterwards came into the possession of a family, called Dallingridge, of eminent note in Hampshire, whose arms were Argent, a cross engailed, gules; and Sir Edward Dallingridge by fine levied in the first year of King Richard II (1377), passed it away to Roger Dallingridge and Alice his wife, and they not long afterwards conveyed it by sale to Thomas Brockhull of Calehill….”. Few dates and vague. But see later on
> • Edward St John of Barlavington (who was also the Edward St John of Kent covered later on) is shown as a debtor on 21/10/1390 with a debt proven against William Best, the elder, of Charing in Kent
> • A Canterbury Will existed for an Edward St John of Charing in 1457. In latin OK, but the script was hard for me to read. But see later on.
> In the course of this research I learned a lot about the various St John lines. This is not the place or space to describe how the various lines fit in with each other, and how so many Johns, Edwards, Olivers, and Alexanders with similar dates have resulted in so many inconsistent family trees, even the professionally family trees!
> This research proved useful in helping my wife’s research her own St John ancestors, where the most recent example was the Barbara St John of Bletso who married Thomas William Coventry, the 6th Earl of Coventry.
> During 2015 a long discussion evolved in Soc Gen Med about the five Sir Edward St Johns who were alive at the same time during the 1300’s and included the mention of a Sir Edward St John, “of Kent” died before 1398, who married Alice (died 1422) the widow of Roger Dallingridge. Alice was said to own many manors in Kent. My research showed that Burleigh Manor, Charing was one of those and transferred to Roger and Alice Dallingridge in 1377. Roger Dallingridge died in 1380, and Alice subsequently married Sir Edward St John. I am taking Edward Hasted’s words “not long afterwards” meaning as before Roger Dallingridge’s death, so the manor of Burleigh almost made it back to the St Johns before being sold off again. But Edward St John did have dealings in Charing as judged by the debitor note above.
> If “my” Thomas St John of Charing had any connection with Burleigh Manor (even if he did not own it) there is some circumstantial evidence that Thomas was somehow descended from the marriage of Sir Edward St John of Kent and Alice. But I just needed to find the descent to Thomas.
> Alas, I have not found this link. Edward St John (-1398) and Alice had a son William (-1437) who had a son John, who had a daughter Elizabeth, so no obvious way through to the dates for Thomas St John. If anyone has better information than this, then please let me know.
> It seemed a brick wall.
> Amongst the Canterbury Wills was one for Edward St John of Charing in Kent who died in 1457 (probate date 22/12/1457) and who just might have been Thomas’s father. This Will was in latin and was translated for me by an expert at Devon Heritage Centre in Exeter.
> Edward St John of Charing (-1457) proved also to be Edward St John of East Luccombe and Selworthy (-1457), both on the Devon/Somerset border! Edward’s will makes various gifts to the churches in these villages, leaves a house to his servant, and leaves the estate to his eldest son William. If you want a copy of the will then please let me know.
> I was not expecting this, so research took off in a new direction.
> The St Johns of East Luccombe are described in ;
> • Wikipedia (very briefly)
> • Geni (very patchy)
> • The Parish of Selworthy in the county of Somerset, by Frederick Hancock (vicar)
> • St John of Bletsoe by John Brownbill (1931)
> • St John Genealogy Project (which includes a large number of original sources)
> • Stirnet and Complete Peerage cover the St Johns of Fonmon and Lageham. Luccombe is not specifically mentioned, but some of the names mentioned may also be from Instow and Luccombe.
> Lots of words and at least two printed family trees of the St John family of Luccombe, which unfortunately differ.
> There is a Thomas St John in one of the family trees, who was born in 1430 with sp written beside the name. SP means Sine Prole means no children? Not Sans Pareil! Thomas must have been c 43 when he married Alice Langham, so there is scope for an earlier marriage without children, or a very late marriage. It all depends on what information was available when the family tree was put together, in a situation where his two siblings were much higher profile. Thomas’s parents were Edward St John (18/2/1395 -1457) and Joan le Jewe (c 1400-) daughter of William and Alice le Jewe.
> The case for Thomas depends on;
> • Dates are right
> • “Of Charing” is shared with Edward St John, who is shown as his father in the family tree
> • he had a mother called Joan(ne), a sister called Joan(na) and a daughter called Joan(na).
> • Reference to Thomas (and Joanna) in the provision made by Edward St John
> Just need to understand the sp. Perhaps it was sp at the point when William dies in 1473.
> Edward and Joan had children as follows;
> • William St John, (c1420 – 20/9/1473) married Alice. Before leaving his property to William, Edward had made provision for his two younger children Joanna and Thomas
> • Joanna St John (c 1425-5/6/1482) married Nicholas de Arundell of Trerice in Cornwall and received William’s property on the death of William’s widow Alice. East Luccombe and Selworthy were held by the Arundell family for hundreds of years until being passed by marriage to the Wentworth family (1768) and then the Acland family (1802) of Holnicot and Killerton. Selworthy and East Luccombe are now owned by the National Trust, following Sir Richard Acland’s gift in 1944.
> • Thomas St John (c1430-) sp. See above
> I have not yet found the document detailing the provision made by Edward for Thomas and it very possible that it was the property owned by Edward in Charing and where he died in 1457. It may just be coincidence that Burleigh Manor was also situated in Charing?
> Edward’s father was Henry St John (c 1336- 24/9/1406), who married Isabelle with children as follows;
> • Edward St John, (18/2/1395 – 1457) who married Joan Jewe (c 1400) daughter of William and Alice Jewe. Edward has left a will, filed under Edward St John of Charing. Edward had perfectly good properties in East Luccombe/Selworthy, so why is he titled “of Charing” for the purpose of his will?
> Henry St John was the youngest son of Alexander St John and Margaret Arundell who was one of the Cornish family, and not a family member from the FitzAlan earls of Arundel.
> • Sir Oliver St John (c1320-1373) who married Elizabeth Luccombe, had son John who married another Elizabeth and died abroad, without legitimate offspring. Other family trees give Oliver a second wife after Elizabeth’s death and a line that leads to the St John’s of Bletso. See below
> • John St John c1322-bef 1380
> • Alexandra St John c1324 -1375
> • Theobald St John c 1330- bef 1380
> • Henry St John c 1336 – 24/9/1406. IPM writ 10/10/1406 Exeter
> After Alexander’s (aft 1351) and Oliver’s (8/1373) death, and the death of Oliver’s son John abroad in his father’s lifetime, Henry had outlived all of his siblings and took possession of the manors of East Luccombe and Selworthy. John’s widow Elizabeth tried to dispute this but without success; Henry remained in possession. Henry also held Stockleigh Luccombe in socage of the heirs of William Baggeputz by the service of one pair of white spurs.
> The detail here comes from membrane 13 Nov 2 1339, Kennington;
> • Licence for Alexander de Sancto Johanne and Elizabeth (widow of Hugh Luccombe) his wife and Oliver De Sancto Johanne and Elizabeth (Luccombe) his wife to Enfeoff Richard de Morcastre, parson of the church of Luccombe, of the manor of East Luccombe co Somerset, and the advowsons of the churches of Luccombe and Selworthy, held in chief as of the honour of Pynkeneye, and for him to re-grant the same to the said Alexander and Elizabeth his wife for life, with successive remainders in tail to Oliver and Elizabeth his wife, to John, Theobald and Henry, sons of the said Alexander, and reversion to the right heirs of the said John.
> The Honour of Pinkney was owned by Hugh de Luccombe
> Several sources suggest that the St Johns of Instow and Luccombe are the same as the St Johns of Fonmon/Faumont in Glamorgan. So I tried to make the data above fit what is known about the Fonmon St Johns.
> Elizabeth Luccombe was born on 5 May 1320, as this date was attested before she married Oliver St John so there is one fixed date. The birth date of 1346 for Oliver suggested by several web sites seems far too late, allowing little time for Elizabeth Luccombe’s early death, a second marriage to Elizabeth Delabere and a son, another John who presented as an adult to Instow church in 1379 and 1387. One source even suggests a birthdate for the younger John of 1383 ie after Oliver’s death!
> The 1346 birth date for Oliver seems to cause an extra generation to be added, allowing a Sir John St John who married Elizabeth Paveley, before the Alexander St John who married Elizabeth Umfreville, except that Alexander was called John who seems to have the same dates and wife as Alexander! Brownbill suggested that it was Collins who suggested the name of John, and this has been widely copied.
> What is needed is a definitive family tree for the St Johns of Fonmon. Help!
> Then I noticed that the St Johns Genealogy web site suggests Alexander as the son of Sir John St John of Lageham, 1st baron, so I have extended Alexander’s family to reflect this option.
> .
> *********************************************************************
> Alexander St John, of Instow and East Luccombe, c1286- aft 1351. Born Stanton St John, Oxon. Died in Instow, Devon. Alexander married first Margaret Arundell (mother of the children), and then Elizabeth widow of Hugh Luccombe (-1323), whose daughter and heiress Elizabeth (1320-) married Alexander’s eldest son Sir Oliver (1320-1373).
> The St John Project web site claims that Alexander was the youngest son of Sir John de St John, first baron St John of Lageham (c1255 – bef 7/1316). Although called baron of Lageham, in Surrey, they lived in Stanton St John, Oxfordshire. A major extra landholding in Swallowfield came by Roger St John’s (John’s father) marriage to a Despenser heir.
> Many primary records are included within the St John Project web site and I have been very selective in including the following. These records have to tie a specific St John to a specific area.
> One outstanding query relates to the wife shown for the first baron shown as Beatrix Broye, who I thought was married to a John de St John (c 1267 -aft 1346) of the Fonmon/Faumont line. Stirnet shows the wife of the first baron as Margaret, and Geni as Maud FitzNigel.
> There are two references confirming that John de St John of Lageham held Instow (near Barnstaple, Devon)
> 1296 held the fee of Instow. J Brownbill art cit 356 Cardiff Records Vol 1 (Cardiff 1898) 264
> 1316 held the fee of Instow. Inquisitions and Assessments related to Feudal Aids 1284-1431 Vol (London 1899), 372, 375
> Children as follows;
> • John de St John, 2nd baron. C1276 (Lageham) died 16/6/1332
> • William de St John. (c1278 – c 1353)
> • Nicholas of Glympton, (c 1279 -1362)
> • Thomas St John. (c1280 – c 1360) Died in Lageham
> • Henry St John (c 1283- 1309). Cleric of Doddicombsleigh, Devon
> • Laurence St John, ( c1284 -aft 1308) Hellestone, Devon
> • Edward St John (c 1285- aft 1312) Tawstock, Devon
> • Alexander St John (c 1286 -aft 1351), born Stanton St John. Templar?, died Instow
> Alexander St John references
> • 1307. Alexander son of John of Staunton (Stanton?) to grant land in Eversholt to the Abbot and convent of Woburn, Beds .
> • 1316 Inherited Instow from his father?
> • 1318 The Register of Bishop Grandisson (Instow). Alexander de Sancto Johanne presents to Instow
> • 1333 Tawstock (near Barnstaple)“Alexander de Sancto Johanne, Knight Templar. Most curious of all, just outside Barnstaple lies a chapel of St John, very near to the interestingly named village of Templeton, the parish records of which list one Alexander de Sancto Johanne as being a regular attendee at the chapel and describes him as a Knight Templar, which is odd because the records are dated 1333, 20 years after the Templars were supposed to have been forced to leave the order or be imprisoned”.
> • 2/11/1339 Alexander St John was granted East Luccombe on his marriage to Elizabeth Luccombe, and his son Oliver’s marriage to her daughter.
> • 1351 The register of Bishop Grandisson (for Instow). This is far later than the dates for the John/Alexander St John of Fonmon.
>
> All feedback welcome!
>
> Colin Piper
Hello Mr. Piper, will you email me please stjohngenealogy AT gmail dot com.

Do you have a specific source for the 1534 year ?
I note that the Vis Devon says "8th son Ao 1534"
I have always taken the Ao notation to mean that he is so-called this in that year
Not specifically that he died that year

On Thursday, 22 December 2022 at 17:30:28 UTC, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> Do you have a specific source for the 1534 year ?
> I note that the Vis Devon says "8th son Ao 1534"
> I have always taken the Ao notation to mean that he is so-called this in that year
> Not specifically that he died that year

Sorry about the slow response!
I do not have an exact date for the deaths of Richard Cotton or Joan St John Cotton.
This research was done over 30 years ago.
Neither Richard nor Joan had IPMs, that I have found.
I believe that Richard outlasted Joan by a few years as this allows for his second marriage to Alice Savage and the birth of just one child.

The sequence is quite complicated in sorting out the various Richard Cottons. The best explanation I have seen is from Hikaru Kitabayashi in an article for a Genealogy Forum (the Cottons of Cotton Edmunds; 29/11/2007) Most web sites get the succession badly wrong even Stirnet, and I am happier that mine is probably correct, than worrying about not having an exact death date.

I am sure that your sources are better than mine!

Keep up the good work and Happy New Year

Colin

On Monday, October 3, 2022 at 11:04:35 AM UTC-4, Colin Piper wrote:
> In Search of Thomas St John, of Charing Kent. Related names Cotton, Savage, Langham, Arundell
> I am trying to find the ancestry of Thomas St John of Charing in Kent, and think that I have made a breakthrough.

Hi, Colin

I was looking at that family today. Katharine (Barsham) Rippelingham's will of Feb. 8, 1473 got me started. She was widow of (1) William Southcote [of Southwark and Rotherhithe?] the latter was buried at the Monastery of Westminster, and (2) Thomas Rippelingham + 1469. She names her granddaughter Alice St. John, as well as Thomas St. John, esq. (from other sources he appears to be her husband, the will does not make the relationship quite clear. However, we find that the testator's daughter by her first husband (Southcote) was Elizabeth who married (1) Richard Langham and (2) Richard Welden. Richard Langham left an only daughter named Alice who married (1) Thomas St. John and (2) John, son of John Cotton of Ridward Hamstall in Staffordshire.. lmk if you have trouble locating this information, I did not take good notes, as they are not related to me, but can likely easily find the various links again.

As to Edward St. John and his wife Alice, I now suspect them to be the Edward who married Alice Rokesley, daughter of Sir John Rokesley of Shelve + ca 1439 and named in the ipm of their son William St. John, 1439.
959.
WILLIAM SEYNT JOHN.
Inquisition, virtute officii, 13 July, 15 Henry VII.
John de Rokesle, knight, was seised in fee of the under-mentioned manor, and granted it by charter to Robert de Rokesle, his son, to hold to him and the heirs of his body. Robert died seised of the manor in fee tail, and after his death the manor descended to Richard, his son and heir. Richard died seised of the manor in fee tail, and after his death the manor descended to Alice, his daughter and heir, who married a certain Edward Seynt John. Edward and Alice were seised of the manor in fee tail, in right of the said Alice, and had issue William Seynt John. Alice survived her husband, and died sole seised of the manor in form aforesaid. After her death the manor descended to the said William as her son and heir, and he entered and was seised thereof in fee tail.
He died 4 November, 18 Henry VI. Elizabeth Massy, widow, aged 71 years and more, is his daughter and heir. Edward Mille and Edmund Mille, late of the parish of Lenham, co. Kent, intruded into the manor and took the issues and profits thereof from the time of the death of the said William until the taking of this inquisition.
KENT.
Manor of Shelve, worth 100s., held of the king in chief by service of a third part of a knight’s fee.
Endorsed:—Execucio fit sicut continetur in Memorandis de anno xvj. regis nunc, videlicet, inter Recorda de termino Sancti Michaelis rotulo —, exparte rememoratoris thesaurarii.

William's daughter Elizabeth Massy married (1) Roger [in some accounts Henry] Dyke (2) Nicholas Hussey (with three daughters who married (depending on the account) Lovell, Lewkner, and Bray), and lastly Ralph Massy/Massey. Her ipm was 1506 at which time she was 78, so born ca 1428. No idea where Thomas fits in, but I'll keep my eyes open.

Inquisition: Post mortem, 28 Mar 1506. 3 31. ELIZABETH MASSY.

Writ 28 March, inquisition 3 May, 21 Henry VII.

She was seised in fee of the under-mentioned manors &c., and suffered a recovery thereof to John Warnet and John Nicholl in Trinity term, 19 Henry VII, [to the use of] herself and her heirs and the performance of her last will.

Afterwards on 11 November, 21 Henry VII, upon espousals to be celebrated between Elizabeth Dyke and John Shirley, the said Elizabeth Massy covenanted and granted to the same John Shirley and Elizabeth Dyke all the under-mentioned lands &c. in Petworth, Byworth and Eggden, to hold for life in survivorship; and on 10 June, 21 Henry VII, the said John Warnett and John Nicholl, at her instance and in fulfilment of [the said covenant], by their charter gave all the said lands &c. to John and Elizabeth for life, by virtue whereof they were seised in their demesne as of free tenement and still survive so seised.

Further [the said John Warnett and John Nicholl], by their charter dated 7 July, 19 Henry VII, gave all the said manors &c., except the lands &c. in [Petworth, Byworth and] Eggden, to the said Elizabeth Massy, to hold to her and her heirs for ever.

Afterwards, on 2 August, 19 Henry VII, the said Elizabeth [by charter gave the said manors] &c., except as before excepted, to John Fyneux, knight, and Thomas Frowyk, knight, chief justices of the king, William Tysted, John Ernley and others, and they were seised thereof accordingly in fee.

By her last will the said Elizabeth willed and declared, inter alia, [that her executors] should have and take the issues and profits of all the said manors &c. for 15 years after her death for the discharge of divers payments and legacies &c., and should take the residue of the issues and profits thereof to their own use during the said term.

Further she willed that the said John Fyneux and Thomas Frowyk, knights, William Tysted, John Ernley, John Warnet and John Nicholl, and other her feoffees, should stand seised of the premises to the uses and intentions in her last will specified. They are still so seised.

She died on Friday before the Annunciation last. John Dyke, aged 6 years and more, is her kinsman and heir, to wit, son of Thomas, son of Henry, her son.

SUSSEX. Manors of Bewgenet, Barlavington and Lurgatsale and 40 messuages, 3000a. land, 1000a. meadow, 5000a. pasture, 500a. wood and 1000a. furze and heath in Barlavington, Bewgenet, Lurgatsale, Byworth, Cotes, Warnycampe, Eggden, Northmerden, Fitelworth and Petworth, worth 40l., held of …… .

C. Series II. Vol. 19. (7.)

best, Monica

On Thursday, February 16, 2023 at 10:33:08 PM UTC-5, mk wrote:
> On Monday, October 3, 2022 at 11:04:35 AM UTC-4, Colin Piper wrote:
> > In Search of Thomas St John, of Charing Kent. Related names Cotton, Savage, Langham, Arundell
> > I am trying to find the ancestry of Thomas St John of Charing in Kent, and think that I have made a breakthrough.

further to above, I note this source agrees with your placement of Thomas.

https://www.stjohngenealogy.com/getperson.php?personID=SSH0019&tree=OSA0001
>
Of interest, the manor of Shelve, which came to William St. John +1439 (from his mother Alice de Rokesley) is very near Charing. William also held the Barlavington manors which came to him from Eve St. John +1354 via his parents Edward +ca 1398 and Alice + aft 1405 and which were later passed to his great granddaughters Eleanor Dering and Constance Goring.

On Sunday, February 19, 2023 at 8:32:39 AM UTC-8, mk wrote:
> On Thursday, February 16, 2023 at 10:33:08 PM UTC-5, mk wrote:
> > On Monday, October 3, 2022 at 11:04:35 AM UTC-4, Colin Piper wrote:
> > > In Search of Thomas St John, of Charing Kent. Related names Cotton, Savage, Langham, Arundell
> > > I am trying to find the ancestry of Thomas St John of Charing in Kent, and think that I have made a breakthrough.
> further to above, I note this source agrees with your placement of Thomas..
>
> https://www.stjohngenealogy.com/getperson.php?personID=SSH0019&tree=OSA0001
> >
> Of interest, the manor of Shelve, which came to William St. John +1439 (from his mother Alice de Rokesley) is very near Charing. William also held the Barlavington manors which came to him from Eve St. John +1354 via his parents Edward +ca 1398 and Alice + aft 1405 and which were later passed to his great granddaughters Eleanor Dering and Constance Goring.

Monica,
I think Edward St. John that married Alice de Rokesley is from an earlier generation. https://www.stjohngenealogy.com/getperson.php?personID=I11747&tree=OSA0001

The other Edward St. John married Joan Jew (confirmed by heraldry at East Luccombe), who I believe are the parents of Thomas St. John of Charing. https://www.stjohngenealogy.com/getperson.php?personID=SSH0019&tree=OSA0001

The Waller family apparently stayed connected to the St. John families in the American colonies - specifically CT colony.

The biggest problem with placement is most publications merged the de Port-St. Johns with my lineage - descendants of Ralph St. John-Paynel d. 1122. It took me four years to separate the lineages with primary records and DNA.

There are some Edwards in the de Port-St. John family as well. One who married an Eve. Do you know the relationship of the Eve you mentioned?

On Sunday, February 19, 2023 at 3:56:54 PM UTC-5, Lone Ranger wrote:

> There are some Edwards in the de Port-St. John family as well. One who married an Eve. Do you know the relationship of the Eve you mentioned?

I've been trying to piece together the line of Edward and Alice (Rokesley/Ruxly) this week. I've made profiles of them on Wikitree, so perhaps this will trigger some input from other St. John researchers. They are very rough, so far, just what I've found the last two or three days. There's clearly a connection with Eve Dawtry, wife of the Sir Edward who died 1347, though I don't know if she is the Eve you meant.

Have a look and lmk if you have anything that might be relevant. I think there's enough to connect Edward, husband of Alice, with the manors of Barlavington, etc. which his son William passes to his daughter Elizabeth (see particularly the ipm of the latter).

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Saint_John-136

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Rokesley-9

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/St_John-5440

On Sunday, February 19, 2023 at 2:05:57 PM UTC-8, mk wrote:
> On Sunday, February 19, 2023 at 3:56:54 PM UTC-5, Lone Ranger wrote:
>
>
> > There are some Edwards in the de Port-St. John family as well. One who married an Eve. Do you know the relationship of the Eve you mentioned?
> I've been trying to piece together the line of Edward and Alice (Rokesley/Ruxly) this week. I've made profiles of them on Wikitree, so perhaps this will trigger some input from other St. John researchers. They are very rough, so far, just what I've found the last two or three days. There's clearly a connection with Eve Dawtry, wife of the Sir Edward who died 1347, though I don't know if she is the Eve you meant.
>
> Have a look and lmk if you have anything that might be relevant. I think there's enough to connect Edward, husband of Alice, with the manors of Barlavington, etc. which his son William passes to his daughter Elizabeth (see particularly the ipm of the latter).
>
> https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Saint_John-136
>
> https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Rokesley-9
>
> https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/St_John-5440
Monica,
The connection to Eve Dawtry would make that a de Port-St. John line https://stjohngenealogy.com/getperson.php?personID=I10660&tree=OSA0001 (based on other's claims. I haven't researched this much myself)

But after re-reading some notes on that page, it's possible this is the one that actually married Eve Dawtry (uncle to one above which would leave a wife spot open to be Alice Rokesley) https://stjohngenealogy.com/getperson.php?personID=I105552079&tree=OSA0001

Suzanne St. John

On Sunday, February 19, 2023 at 5:21:50 PM UTC-5, Lone Ranger wrote:

> The connection to Eve Dawtry would make that a de Port-St. John line https://stjohngenealogy.com/getperson.php?personID=I10660&tree=OSA0001 (based on other's claims. I haven't researched this much myself)
>
> But after re-reading some notes on that page, it's possible this is the one that actually married Eve Dawtry (uncle to one above which would leave a wife spot open to be Alice Rokesley) https://stjohngenealogy.com/getperson..php?personID=I105552079&tree=OSA0001
>
> Suzanne St. John

I don't understand what you mean by leaving a wife spot open. I don't think Edward who married Alice also married Eve.

Specifically, right now I'm looking for the descent of these manors in the inheritance of Eve Dawtry:

Bewgenet, Barlavington and Lurgatsale Byworth, Cotes, Warnycampe, Eggden, Northmerden, Fitelworth and Petworth.

These all turn up in the i.p.m. of Elizabeth St John Dyke Hussey Massey +1506 daughter of William, +1439 son of Edward and Alice Rokesley
Then to her son by her first marriage, Henry Dyke
Then to his son Thomas
He must have died young, as his sisters Constance Dyke Goring and Eleanor Dyke Dering are next heirs

On Monday, 20 February 2023 at 13:57:42 UTC, mk wrote:
> On Sunday, February 19, 2023 at 5:21:50 PM UTC-5, Lone Ranger wrote:
>
> > The connection to Eve Dawtry would make that a de Port-St. John line https://stjohngenealogy.com/getperson.php?personID=I10660&tree=OSA0001 (based on other's claims. I haven't researched this much myself)
> >
> > But after re-reading some notes on that page, it's possible this is the one that actually married Eve Dawtry (uncle to one above which would leave a wife spot open to be Alice Rokesley) https://stjohngenealogy.com/getperson.php?personID=I105552079&tree=OSA0001
> >
> > Suzanne St. John
> I don't understand what you mean by leaving a wife spot open. I don't think Edward who married Alice also married Eve.
>
> Specifically, right now I'm looking for the descent of these manors in the inheritance of Eve Dawtry:
>
> Bewgenet, Barlavington and Lurgatsale Byworth, Cotes, Warnycampe, Eggden, Northmerden, Fitelworth and Petworth.
>
>
> These all turn up in the i.p.m. of Elizabeth St John Dyke Hussey Massey +1506 daughter of William, +1439 son of Edward and Alice Rokesley
> Then to her son by her first marriage, Henry Dyke
> Then to his son Thomas
> He must have died young, as his sisters Constance Dyke Goring and Eleanor Dyke Dering are next heirs

On Monday, February 20, 2023 at 5:57:42 AM UTC-8, mk wrote:
> On Sunday, February 19, 2023 at 5:21:50 PM UTC-5, Lone Ranger wrote:
>
> > The connection to Eve Dawtry would make that a de Port-St. John line https://stjohngenealogy.com/getperson.php?personID=I10660&tree=OSA0001 (based on other's claims. I haven't researched this much myself)
> >
> > But after re-reading some notes on that page, it's possible this is the one that actually married Eve Dawtry (uncle to one above which would leave a wife spot open to be Alice Rokesley) https://stjohngenealogy.com/getperson.php?personID=I105552079&tree=OSA0001
> >
> > Suzanne St. John
> I don't understand what you mean by leaving a wife spot open. I don't think Edward who married Alice also married Eve.
>
> Specifically, right now I'm looking for the descent of these manors in the inheritance of Eve Dawtry:
>
> Bewgenet, Barlavington and Lurgatsale Byworth, Cotes, Warnycampe, Eggden, Northmerden, Fitelworth and Petworth.
>
>
> These all turn up in the i.p.m. of Elizabeth St John Dyke Hussey Massey +1506 daughter of William, +1439 son of Edward and Alice Rokesley
> Then to her son by her first marriage, Henry Dyke
> Then to his son Thomas
> He must have died young, as his sisters Constance Dyke Goring and Eleanor Dyke Dering are next heirs

According to your wikitree link I had Eva Dawtry attached to the wrong Edward but the wikitree info has errors too. I've been trying to make correction to my site. There are 3+ Edward St. Johns in that cluster. Specifically an uncle and nephew both named Edward. I had Eva married to the nephew but your wikitree link has her married to the uncle which makes more sense.

The nephew "Edward de Sancto Johanne ' le neveu,' " could then be the husband to your Alice Rokesley.

John St. John m. Alice FitzPiers
1) Roger m. Joan Hevere 2) Edward m. Eva Dawtry Paynell 3) John
Both of these brothers had sons named Edward.
1) Edward son of Roger aka "Edward de Sancto Johanne ' le neveu,' m. [Alice de Rokesley?] /// 2) Edward son of Edward m. Anastatia Aton /// 3) Edward [alleged son of John] m. [Alice de Rokesley?]

I have no info to support John having a son named Edward. Although, it does appear Cockayne may have guessed when he placed Edward 'the nephew' under Roger.
I have created a profile for Alice [de Rokesley] and have her placed temporarily married to both. https://www.stjohngenealogy.com/getperson.php?personID=I12437&tree=OSA0001

On Tuesday, February 21, 2023 at 10:36:23 AM UTC-5, Lone Ranger wrote:

> The nephew "Edward de Sancto Johanne ' le neveu,' " could then be the husband to your Alice Rokesley.
>
> John St. John m. Alice FitzPiers
> 1) Roger m. Joan Hevere 2) Edward m. Eva Dawtry Paynell 3) John
> Both of these brothers had sons named Edward.
> 1) Edward son of Roger aka "Edward de Sancto Johanne ' le neveu,' m. [Alice de Rokesley?] /// 2) Edward son of Edward m. Anastatia Aton /// 3) Edward [alleged son of John] m. [Alice de Rokesley?]
>
> I have no info to support John having a son named Edward. Although, it does appear Cockayne may have guessed when he placed Edward 'the nephew' under Roger.
> I have created a profile for Alice [de Rokesley] and have her placed temporarily married to both. https://www.stjohngenealogy.com/getperson.php?personID=I12437&tree=OSA0001

Edward the nephew married Joan and died s.p. ca. 1384, so it can't be him. Also, he doesn't seem to have any connection to he Barlavington manors.

There are mentions of an Edward, son of John. There might be two of these, one the grandson of Sir John who married Isabel de Courtenay, and the other the grandson of Edward and Eve. I had previously assumed all mentions of Edward son of John belonged to the former Edward, but now suspect that Edward = Alice is likely another. He clearly is the conduit by which Eve's manors came to his granddaughter Elizabeth +1506. I don't know why they would have gone to the Basing branch, though if there was a reason then perhaps he is the Edward who married Alice. There certainly was a close connection, as in 1375 Edward son of John was borrowing money from Edward of Londsborough, son of Edward "the uncle" and Eve.

Reference: C 241/158/60
Description:
Debtor: Edward, the son of John St John [held part of a fee in Stopham, Rotherbridge Hundred, Sussex]
Creditor: Sir Edward St. John, lord of Laundesburgh.
Amount: £100, on account of a loan.
When taken: 02/05/1375...
Date: 1376 Jun 10

But it seems as if there was a line from Edward and Eve's son John to explain the descent of the manors.
“From John de St. John, Brother to Sir Edward, Lord of Barlavington, descended the St. Johns of Barlavington in Sussex, bearing Argent on a Chief indented Gules, 3 Mullets Or. whereof was Edward, who had Issue William de St. John, Lord of the same; which Edward dying September 16 1438. his Heir was Elizabeth, Married first to Goring; whence the Gorings of Burton in that County, Baronets; and Secondly to Hussee, and Thirdly to Massie.”
Notitia St. Johanniana: or, Genealogical and historical ... - Page 24

And by 1390, both Edward the uncle (of Barlavington) and Edward the nephew (of Stopham) were both dead, so if this reference indicates that Sir Edward was still alive, it was probably the one who was Sheriff of Surrey and Sussex and married to Alice.

Reference: C 241/179/94
Description: Debtor: William Best, the elder, of Charing in Kent [Calehill Hundred]
Creditor: Edward St John {Seyntion}, knight, of Sussex [held fee in Barlavington, Rotherbridge Hundred, Sussex, and in Linch, Easebourne Hundred, Sussex] and elsewhere in Sussex.
....Last term: 24/06/1374
Writ to: Sheriff of Kent
Sent by: John Roper, Mayor of the Staple of Sandwich.
Endorsement: Kanc' Coram d'no Rege in Cancellar' sua in quindena Martini.
Date: 1390 Oct 21

On Tuesday, February 21, 2023 at 11:02:06 AM UTC-8, mk wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 21, 2023 at 10:36:23 AM UTC-5, Lone Ranger wrote:
>
>
> > The nephew "Edward de Sancto Johanne ' le neveu,' " could then be the husband to your Alice Rokesley.
> >
> > John St. John m. Alice FitzPiers
> > 1) Roger m. Joan Hevere 2) Edward m. Eva Dawtry Paynell 3) John
> > Both of these brothers had sons named Edward.
> > 1) Edward son of Roger aka "Edward de Sancto Johanne ' le neveu,' m. [Alice de Rokesley?] /// 2) Edward son of Edward m. Anastatia Aton /// 3) Edward [alleged son of John] m. [Alice de Rokesley?]
> >
> > I have no info to support John having a son named Edward. Although, it does appear Cockayne may have guessed when he placed Edward 'the nephew' under Roger.
> > I have created a profile for Alice [de Rokesley] and have her placed temporarily married to both. https://www.stjohngenealogy.com/getperson.php?personID=I12437&tree=OSA0001
> Edward the nephew married Joan and died s.p. ca. 1384, so it can't be him.. Also, he doesn't seem to have any connection to he Barlavington manors.
>
> There are mentions of an Edward, son of John. There might be two of these, one the grandson of Sir John who married Isabel de Courtenay, and the other the grandson of Edward and Eve. I had previously assumed all mentions of Edward son of John belonged to the former Edward, but now suspect that Edward = Alice is likely another. He clearly is the conduit by which Eve's manors came to his granddaughter Elizabeth +1506. I don't know why they would have gone to the Basing branch, though if there was a reason then perhaps he is the Edward who married Alice. There certainly was a close connection, as in 1375 Edward son of John was borrowing money from Edward of Londsborough, son of Edward "the uncle" and Eve.
>
> Reference: C 241/158/60
> Description:
> Debtor: Edward, the son of John St John [held part of a fee in Stopham, Rotherbridge Hundred, Sussex]
> Creditor: Sir Edward St. John, lord of Laundesburgh.
> Amount: £100, on account of a loan.
> When taken: 02/05/1375...
> Date: 1376 Jun 10
>
> But it seems as if there was a line from Edward and Eve's son John to explain the descent of the manors.
> “From John de St. John, Brother to Sir Edward, Lord of Barlavington, descended the St. Johns of Barlavington in Sussex, bearing Argent on a Chief indented Gules, 3 Mullets Or. whereof was Edward, who had Issue William de St. John, Lord of the same; which Edward dying September 16 1438. his Heir was Elizabeth, Married first to Goring; whence the Gorings of Burton in that County, Baronets; and Secondly to Hussee, and Thirdly to Massie.”
> Notitia St. Johanniana: or, Genealogical and historical ... - Page 24
>
> And by 1390, both Edward the uncle (of Barlavington) and Edward the nephew (of Stopham) were both dead, so if this reference indicates that Sir Edward was still alive, it was probably the one who was Sheriff of Surrey and Sussex and married to Alice.
>
> Reference: C 241/179/94
> Description: Debtor: William Best, the elder, of Charing in Kent [Calehill Hundred]
> Creditor: Edward St John {Seyntion}, knight, of Sussex [held fee in Barlavington, Rotherbridge Hundred, Sussex, and in Linch, Easebourne Hundred, Sussex] and elsewhere in Sussex.
> ...Last term: 24/06/1374
> Writ to: Sheriff of Kent
> Sent by: John Roper, Mayor of the Staple of Sandwich.
> Endorsement: Kanc' Coram d'no Rege in Cancellar' sua in quindena Martini.
> Date: 1390 Oct 21

Do you have this one? Edward St. John of Stopham is wife Joan.

1384 Licence, for 10 marks paid to the kingbyEdwardSeyntJohnn of Slopeham,knight,for him to enfeoff Hugh Cran,John Berewode, clerk, ThomasChaumberleyn, William Purchas,Robert Palmer,Elias Savage and JohnPakenham of the manors of Wolfcrton, Iweherstand Okie,co. Southampand Staunton,co. Wilts, and for the feoffees, after seisin had, togrant the same to the said Edward and Joan,his wife, for their lives, with remainder to themselves, the feoffees, in fee simple. See: http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/r2v2/body/Richard2vol2page0364.pdf

On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 12:04:35 AM UTC+9, Colin Piper wrote:
> In Search of Thomas St John, of Charing Kent. Related names Cotton, Savage, Langham, Arundell
> I am trying to find the ancestry of Thomas St John of Charing in Kent, and think that I have made a breakthrough.
> This note is as short as possible and if anyone wants more detail on any of the references then please let me know.
> I hope that names in bold are direct ancestors.
> I consider myself to be descended from the marriage of Richard Cotton (c1480- aft 1534), of Hamstall Ridware (Staffordshire) and Johanna St John (c 1476 -1534), daughter of Thomas St John of Charing, (Kent).
> The marriage above is documented on the sides of an Altar Tomb in Hamstall Ridware Church, dedicated to John Cotton (-c1478) and Joanna Fitzherbert of Norbury (c1435-c 1525), and lists brief details of their 15 children. This Altar Tomb must have been erected in the lifetime of their children as it lists some that died early and who are not documented elsewhere. If anyone wants a copy of the transcriptions on the side of the Altar Tomb then please let me know.
> The relevant wording for Richard Cotton is “Richard mar Jahne one of the daughters and heirs to Thomas St John of Charyng in Kent, also to Alis daughter to Gilbert Savage.”
> The wording for Richard’s elder brother John Cotton is “John mar Alice, daughter and heir to Richard Langham, of Langham, co Suffolk”
> The fact that Alice Langham was married first to Thomas St John, is not covered above, but is clearly shown via the Langham of Langham family tree shown in Muskett’s Suffolk Manorial Families.
> At this point, the following extra information is available
> • Alice Langham and Thomas St John married in 1473
> • There were 4 daughters; Joanna, Bridget (married William Waller), Elizabeth (married John Haward), and NN
> • The manors shown for Thomas (Panfield and Hempstead, both in Essex) were those of his wife Alice, so she must have had some wealth. No mention of Charing in Kent, so assume that Thomas did not then have a connection with Charing.
> • Thomas died around 1478/9 ( 4 daughters after 1473 v Alice marriage to John in 1481)
> • Alice subsequently married John Cotton in 1481. John was born c 1460, Alice probably c1455, and a new family of Cottons arose in Panfield
> • Richard Cotton was the youngest surviving brother of John Cotton, and married Joanna the daughter of Alice Langham and Thomas St John
> A great deal of personal research about St John families in Charing, Kent turned up absolutely nothing about Thomas and very little about the St John family. This includes;
> • Edward Hasted’s History and Topographicial Survey of the County of Kent, Vol 7(1798) describes “…..Burleigh or Burley Manor,( Charing) came into the possession of the St Johns who bore for their arms Argent, a mullet sable on a chief gules, three mullets pierced of the first. At length Avis daughter of William St John of Charing carried it in marriage to Humphry Barrey esq who afterwards dwelt here, and was from hence styled Barrey, of Charing. But it does not seem to have remained long in this name, for it soon afterwards came into the possession of a family, called Dallingridge, of eminent note in Hampshire, whose arms were Argent, a cross engailed, gules; and Sir Edward Dallingridge by fine levied in the first year of King Richard II (1377), passed it away to Roger Dallingridge and Alice his wife, and they not long afterwards conveyed it by sale to Thomas Brockhull of Calehill….”. Few dates and vague. But see later on
> • Edward St John of Barlavington (who was also the Edward St John of Kent covered later on) is shown as a debtor on 21/10/1390 with a debt proven against William Best, the elder, of Charing in Kent
> • A Canterbury Will existed for an Edward St John of Charing in 1457. In latin OK, but the script was hard for me to read. But see later on.
> In the course of this research I learned a lot about the various St John lines. This is not the place or space to describe how the various lines fit in with each other, and how so many Johns, Edwards, Olivers, and Alexanders with similar dates have resulted in so many inconsistent family trees, even the professionally family trees!
> This research proved useful in helping my wife’s research her own St John ancestors, where the most recent example was the Barbara St John of Bletso who married Thomas William Coventry, the 6th Earl of Coventry.
> During 2015 a long discussion evolved in Soc Gen Med about the five Sir Edward St Johns who were alive at the same time during the 1300’s and included the mention of a Sir Edward St John, “of Kent” died before 1398, who married Alice (died 1422) the widow of Roger Dallingridge. Alice was said to own many manors in Kent. My research showed that Burleigh Manor, Charing was one of those and transferred to Roger and Alice Dallingridge in 1377. Roger Dallingridge died in 1380, and Alice subsequently married Sir Edward St John. I am taking Edward Hasted’s words “not long afterwards” meaning as before Roger Dallingridge’s death, so the manor of Burleigh almost made it back to the St Johns before being sold off again. But Edward St John did have dealings in Charing as judged by the debitor note above.
> If “my” Thomas St John of Charing had any connection with Burleigh Manor (even if he did not own it) there is some circumstantial evidence that Thomas was somehow descended from the marriage of Sir Edward St John of Kent and Alice. But I just needed to find the descent to Thomas.
> Alas, I have not found this link. Edward St John (-1398) and Alice had a son William (-1437) who had a son John, who had a daughter Elizabeth, so no obvious way through to the dates for Thomas St John. If anyone has better information than this, then please let me know.
> It seemed a brick wall.
> Amongst the Canterbury Wills was one for Edward St John of Charing in Kent who died in 1457 (probate date 22/12/1457) and who just might have been Thomas’s father. This Will was in latin and was translated for me by an expert at Devon Heritage Centre in Exeter.
> Edward St John of Charing (-1457) proved also to be Edward St John of East Luccombe and Selworthy (-1457), both on the Devon/Somerset border! Edward’s will makes various gifts to the churches in these villages, leaves a house to his servant, and leaves the estate to his eldest son William. If you want a copy of the will then please let me know.
> I was not expecting this, so research took off in a new direction.
> The St Johns of East Luccombe are described in ;
> • Wikipedia (very briefly)
> • Geni (very patchy)
> • The Parish of Selworthy in the county of Somerset, by Frederick Hancock (vicar)
> • St John of Bletsoe by John Brownbill (1931)
> • St John Genealogy Project (which includes a large number of original sources)
> • Stirnet and Complete Peerage cover the St Johns of Fonmon and Lageham. Luccombe is not specifically mentioned, but some of the names mentioned may also be from Instow and Luccombe.
> Lots of words and at least two printed family trees of the St John family of Luccombe, which unfortunately differ.
> There is a Thomas St John in one of the family trees, who was born in 1430 with sp written beside the name. SP means Sine Prole means no children? Not Sans Pareil! Thomas must have been c 43 when he married Alice Langham, so there is scope for an earlier marriage without children, or a very late marriage. It all depends on what information was available when the family tree was put together, in a situation where his two siblings were much higher profile. Thomas’s parents were Edward St John (18/2/1395 -1457) and Joan le Jewe (c 1400-) daughter of William and Alice le Jewe.
> The case for Thomas depends on;
> • Dates are right
> • “Of Charing” is shared with Edward St John, who is shown as his father in the family tree
> • he had a mother called Joan(ne), a sister called Joan(na) and a daughter called Joan(na).
> • Reference to Thomas (and Joanna) in the provision made by Edward St John
> Just need to understand the sp. Perhaps it was sp at the point when William dies in 1473.
> Edward and Joan had children as follows;
> • William St John, (c1420 – 20/9/1473) married Alice. Before leaving his property to William, Edward had made provision for his two younger children Joanna and Thomas
> • Joanna St John (c 1425-5/6/1482) married Nicholas de Arundell of Trerice in Cornwall and received William’s property on the death of William’s widow Alice. East Luccombe and Selworthy were held by the Arundell family for hundreds of years until being passed by marriage to the Wentworth family (1768) and then the Acland family (1802) of Holnicot and Killerton. Selworthy and East Luccombe are now owned by the National Trust, following Sir Richard Acland’s gift in 1944.
> • Thomas St John (c1430-) sp. See above
> I have not yet found the document detailing the provision made by Edward for Thomas and it very possible that it was the property owned by Edward in Charing and where he died in 1457. It may just be coincidence that Burleigh Manor was also situated in Charing?
> Edward’s father was Henry St John (c 1336- 24/9/1406), who married Isabelle with children as follows;
> • Edward St John, (18/2/1395 – 1457) who married Joan Jewe (c 1400) daughter of William and Alice Jewe. Edward has left a will, filed under Edward St John of Charing. Edward had perfectly good properties in East Luccombe/Selworthy, so why is he titled “of Charing” for the purpose of his will?
> Henry St John was the youngest son of Alexander St John and Margaret Arundell who was one of the Cornish family, and not a family member from the FitzAlan earls of Arundel.
> • Sir Oliver St John (c1320-1373) who married Elizabeth Luccombe, had son John who married another Elizabeth and died abroad, without legitimate offspring. Other family trees give Oliver a second wife after Elizabeth’s death and a line that leads to the St John’s of Bletso. See below
> • John St John c1322-bef 1380
> • Alexandra St John c1324 -1375
> • Theobald St John c 1330- bef 1380
> • Henry St John c 1336 – 24/9/1406. IPM writ 10/10/1406 Exeter
> After Alexander’s (aft 1351) and Oliver’s (8/1373) death, and the death of Oliver’s son John abroad in his father’s lifetime, Henry had outlived all of his siblings and took possession of the manors of East Luccombe and Selworthy. John’s widow Elizabeth tried to dispute this but without success; Henry remained in possession. Henry also held Stockleigh Luccombe in socage of the heirs of William Baggeputz by the service of one pair of white spurs.
> The detail here comes from membrane 13 Nov 2 1339, Kennington;
> • Licence for Alexander de Sancto Johanne and Elizabeth (widow of Hugh Luccombe) his wife and Oliver De Sancto Johanne and Elizabeth (Luccombe) his wife to Enfeoff Richard de Morcastre, parson of the church of Luccombe, of the manor of East Luccombe co Somerset, and the advowsons of the churches of Luccombe and Selworthy, held in chief as of the honour of Pynkeneye, and for him to re-grant the same to the said Alexander and Elizabeth his wife for life, with successive remainders in tail to Oliver and Elizabeth his wife, to John, Theobald and Henry, sons of the said Alexander, and reversion to the right heirs of the said John.
> The Honour of Pinkney was owned by Hugh de Luccombe
> Several sources suggest that the St Johns of Instow and Luccombe are the same as the St Johns of Fonmon/Faumont in Glamorgan. So I tried to make the data above fit what is known about the Fonmon St Johns.
> Elizabeth Luccombe was born on 5 May 1320, as this date was attested before she married Oliver St John so there is one fixed date. The birth date of 1346 for Oliver suggested by several web sites seems far too late, allowing little time for Elizabeth Luccombe’s early death, a second marriage to Elizabeth Delabere and a son, another John who presented as an adult to Instow church in 1379 and 1387. One source even suggests a birthdate for the younger John of 1383 ie after Oliver’s death!
> The 1346 birth date for Oliver seems to cause an extra generation to be added, allowing a Sir John St John who married Elizabeth Paveley, before the Alexander St John who married Elizabeth Umfreville, except that Alexander was called John who seems to have the same dates and wife as Alexander! Brownbill suggested that it was Collins who suggested the name of John, and this has been widely copied.
> What is needed is a definitive family tree for the St Johns of Fonmon. Help!
> Then I noticed that the St Johns Genealogy web site suggests Alexander as the son of Sir John St John of Lageham, 1st baron, so I have extended Alexander’s family to reflect this option.
> .
> *********************************************************************
> Alexander St John, of Instow and East Luccombe, c1286- aft 1351. Born Stanton St John, Oxon. Died in Instow, Devon. Alexander married first Margaret Arundell (mother of the children), and then Elizabeth widow of Hugh Luccombe (-1323), whose daughter and heiress Elizabeth (1320-) married Alexander’s eldest son Sir Oliver (1320-1373).
> The St John Project web site claims that Alexander was the youngest son of Sir John de St John, first baron St John of Lageham (c1255 – bef 7/1316). Although called baron of Lageham, in Surrey, they lived in Stanton St John, Oxfordshire. A major extra landholding in Swallowfield came by Roger St John’s (John’s father) marriage to a Despenser heir.
> Many primary records are included within the St John Project web site and I have been very selective in including the following. These records have to tie a specific St John to a specific area.
> One outstanding query relates to the wife shown for the first baron shown as Beatrix Broye, who I thought was married to a John de St John (c 1267 -aft 1346) of the Fonmon/Faumont line. Stirnet shows the wife of the first baron as Margaret, and Geni as Maud FitzNigel.
> There are two references confirming that John de St John of Lageham held Instow (near Barnstaple, Devon)
> 1296 held the fee of Instow. J Brownbill art cit 356 Cardiff Records Vol 1 (Cardiff 1898) 264
> 1316 held the fee of Instow. Inquisitions and Assessments related to Feudal Aids 1284-1431 Vol (London 1899), 372, 375
> Children as follows;
> • John de St John, 2nd baron. C1276 (Lageham) died 16/6/1332
> • William de St John. (c1278 – c 1353)
> • Nicholas of Glympton, (c 1279 -1362)
> • Thomas St John. (c1280 – c 1360) Died in Lageham
> • Henry St John (c 1283- 1309). Cleric of Doddicombsleigh, Devon
> • Laurence St John, ( c1284 -aft 1308) Hellestone, Devon
> • Edward St John (c 1285- aft 1312) Tawstock, Devon
> • Alexander St John (c 1286 -aft 1351), born Stanton St John. Templar?, died Instow
> Alexander St John references
> • 1307. Alexander son of John of Staunton (Stanton?) to grant land in Eversholt to the Abbot and convent of Woburn, Beds .
> • 1316 Inherited Instow from his father?
> • 1318 The Register of Bishop Grandisson (Instow). Alexander de Sancto Johanne presents to Instow
> • 1333 Tawstock (near Barnstaple)“Alexander de Sancto Johanne, Knight Templar. Most curious of all, just outside Barnstaple lies a chapel of St John, very near to the interestingly named village of Templeton, the parish records of which list one Alexander de Sancto Johanne as being a regular attendee at the chapel and describes him as a Knight Templar, which is odd because the records are dated 1333, 20 years after the Templars were supposed to have been forced to leave the order or be imprisoned”.
> • 2/11/1339 Alexander St John was granted East Luccombe on his marriage to Elizabeth Luccombe, and his son Oliver’s marriage to her daughter.
> • 1351 The register of Bishop Grandisson (for Instow). This is far later than the dates for the John/Alexander St John of Fonmon.
>
> All feedback welcome!
>
> Colin Piper
You have done an impressive amount of work at a time I have been working on the same problem from a different angle. The two earliest surviving Cotton family pedigrees are by Sir Robert Bruce Cotton and the other William Burton (1575-1645), a noted antiquarian. Both were active in the late 16th and early 17th centuries and were friends of one another. Both produced Cotton family pedigrees from roughly the same time during the early 17th century. The two pedigrees, however, differ significantly in detail. The one by Sir Robert Bruce Cotton was aimed at showing that he had royal ancestry and he had little interest in his own male line ancestry where it diverged from his female-line derived royal ancestry. In fact, he showed extreme carelessness and got almost everything wrong (and that includes the senior Cotton family line which Richard Cotton belonged to). On the other hand, William Burton, by profession, was a lawyer and tried to base everything he produced on scholarship. Moreover, he was actually rather more closely connected with Richard Cotton by way of marriage and in a position to have actually talked with people who would have met and had memories of that man. Richard's daughter Maude married Francis Repington as her first husband and had several children by him. When he died, she remarried to George Willoughby and is said to have had a further two sons. George's brother had married a sister of the Duke of Suffolk and second cousin of Queen Elizabeth II. The daughter of this couple became Lady Arundell of Wardour. George Willoughby lived until the last years of the 16th century and the oldest son of Francis Repington and Maude Cotton lived until the early 17th century. Richard Cotton, himself, is often said to have died about 1534 because that was the year a church brass engraving was made describing his wife as being Alice Savage the daughter of Gilbert Savage the younger son of Sir John Savage, kt., but it can be shown by legal documents that Richard and Alice lived until well into the 1540s. The Repington's oldest son was born in 1534, so would have been of an age to have met and remembered his grandparents while they were still alive. The sister of Maude Cotton's husband, however, became the grandmother of William Burton. Additionally, William Burton had a direct Cotton descent through a more distant Burton ancestor marrying a Cotton belonging to the same larger Cotton family that Richard Cotton and Sir Robert Bruce Cotton were both descended from. According to both Cotton pedigrees, Francis Repington's wife Matilda Cotton was the daughter of Alice Savage. However, while John Cotton of London and Humphrey Cotton of Bould and Nicholas Cotton of Lichfield Cathedral were specified as being the children of Joan St. John by Sir Robert Bruce Cotton's pedigree, in William Burton's pedigree we have a completely different picture. Here, the name Humphrey Cotton appears twice, once as a song of Joan St. John and another time as the son of Alice Savage. Moreover, in a church survey of about 1532, Humphrey Cotton also appears twice in Hampstall Ridware, once as a part of Richard Cotton's household and once as the apparently still unmarried head of an independent household. In doing research recently, though, I have come across new sources, creating an even more complicated situation. Is Sir Robert Bruce Cotton right or is William Burton right or are both wrong. At the moment, I am not sure. For this reason, I have been doing research on the Savage connection because it was easier to work on for someone like me who is located in Japan.. I think, though, that between your efforts and mine, we are well on our way toward solving problems that must have seemed confusing even 400 years ago.

On Friday, April 21, 2023 at 10:43:25 PM UTC+9, Hikaru Kitabayashi wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 12:04:35 AM UTC+9, Colin Piper wrote:
> > In Search of Thomas St John, of Charing Kent. Related names Cotton, Savage, Langham, Arundell
> > I am trying to find the ancestry of Thomas St John of Charing in Kent, and think that I have made a breakthrough.
> > This note is as short as possible and if anyone wants more detail on any of the references then please let me know.
> > I hope that names in bold are direct ancestors.
> > I consider myself to be descended from the marriage of Richard Cotton (c1480- aft 1534), of Hamstall Ridware (Staffordshire) and Johanna St John (c 1476 -1534), daughter of Thomas St John of Charing, (Kent).
> > The marriage above is documented on the sides of an Altar Tomb in Hamstall Ridware Church, dedicated to John Cotton (-c1478) and Joanna Fitzherbert of Norbury (c1435-c 1525), and lists brief details of their 15 children. This Altar Tomb must have been erected in the lifetime of their children as it lists some that died early and who are not documented elsewhere. If anyone wants a copy of the transcriptions on the side of the Altar Tomb then please let me know.
> > The relevant wording for Richard Cotton is “Richard mar Jahne one of the daughters and heirs to Thomas St John of Charyng in Kent, also to Alis daughter to Gilbert Savage.”
> > The wording for Richard’s elder brother John Cotton is “John mar Alice, daughter and heir to Richard Langham, of Langham, co Suffolk”
> > The fact that Alice Langham was married first to Thomas St John, is not covered above, but is clearly shown via the Langham of Langham family tree shown in Muskett’s Suffolk Manorial Families.
> > At this point, the following extra information is available
> > • Alice Langham and Thomas St John married in 1473
> > • There were 4 daughters; Joanna, Bridget (married William Waller), Elizabeth (married John Haward), and NN
> > • The manors shown for Thomas (Panfield and Hempstead, both in Essex) were those of his wife Alice, so she must have had some wealth. No mention of Charing in Kent, so assume that Thomas did not then have a connection with Charing.
> > • Thomas died around 1478/9 ( 4 daughters after 1473 v Alice marriage to John in 1481)
> > • Alice subsequently married John Cotton in 1481. John was born c 1460, Alice probably c1455, and a new family of Cottons arose in Panfield
> > • Richard Cotton was the youngest surviving brother of John Cotton, and married Joanna the daughter of Alice Langham and Thomas St John
> > A great deal of personal research about St John families in Charing, Kent turned up absolutely nothing about Thomas and very little about the St John family. This includes;
> > • Edward Hasted’s History and Topographicial Survey of the County of Kent, Vol 7(1798) describes “…..Burleigh or Burley Manor,( Charing) came into the possession of the St Johns who bore for their arms Argent, a mullet sable on a chief gules, three mullets pierced of the first. At length Avis daughter of William St John of Charing carried it in marriage to Humphry Barrey esq who afterwards dwelt here, and was from hence styled Barrey, of Charing. But it does not seem to have remained long in this name, for it soon afterwards came into the possession of a family, called Dallingridge, of eminent note in Hampshire, whose arms were Argent, a cross engailed, gules; and Sir Edward Dallingridge by fine levied in the first year of King Richard II (1377), passed it away to Roger Dallingridge and Alice his wife, and they not long afterwards conveyed it by sale to Thomas Brockhull of Calehill….”. Few dates and vague. But see later on
> > • Edward St John of Barlavington (who was also the Edward St John of Kent covered later on) is shown as a debtor on 21/10/1390 with a debt proven against William Best, the elder, of Charing in Kent
> > • A Canterbury Will existed for an Edward St John of Charing in 1457. In latin OK, but the script was hard for me to read. But see later on.
> > In the course of this research I learned a lot about the various St John lines. This is not the place or space to describe how the various lines fit in with each other, and how so many Johns, Edwards, Olivers, and Alexanders with similar dates have resulted in so many inconsistent family trees, even the professionally family trees!
> > This research proved useful in helping my wife’s research her own St John ancestors, where the most recent example was the Barbara St John of Bletso who married Thomas William Coventry, the 6th Earl of Coventry.
> > During 2015 a long discussion evolved in Soc Gen Med about the five Sir Edward St Johns who were alive at the same time during the 1300’s and included the mention of a Sir Edward St John, “of Kent” died before 1398, who married Alice (died 1422) the widow of Roger Dallingridge. Alice was said to own many manors in Kent. My research showed that Burleigh Manor, Charing was one of those and transferred to Roger and Alice Dallingridge in 1377. Roger Dallingridge died in 1380, and Alice subsequently married Sir Edward St John. I am taking Edward Hasted’s words “not long afterwards” meaning as before Roger Dallingridge’s death, so the manor of Burleigh almost made it back to the St Johns before being sold off again. But Edward St John did have dealings in Charing as judged by the debitor note above.
> > If “my” Thomas St John of Charing had any connection with Burleigh Manor (even if he did not own it) there is some circumstantial evidence that Thomas was somehow descended from the marriage of Sir Edward St John of Kent and Alice. But I just needed to find the descent to Thomas.
> > Alas, I have not found this link. Edward St John (-1398) and Alice had a son William (-1437) who had a son John, who had a daughter Elizabeth, so no obvious way through to the dates for Thomas St John. If anyone has better information than this, then please let me know.
> > It seemed a brick wall.
> > Amongst the Canterbury Wills was one for Edward St John of Charing in Kent who died in 1457 (probate date 22/12/1457) and who just might have been Thomas’s father. This Will was in latin and was translated for me by an expert at Devon Heritage Centre in Exeter.
> > Edward St John of Charing (-1457) proved also to be Edward St John of East Luccombe and Selworthy (-1457), both on the Devon/Somerset border! Edward’s will makes various gifts to the churches in these villages, leaves a house to his servant, and leaves the estate to his eldest son William. If you want a copy of the will then please let me know.
> > I was not expecting this, so research took off in a new direction.
> > The St Johns of East Luccombe are described in ;
> > • Wikipedia (very briefly)
> > • Geni (very patchy)
> > • The Parish of Selworthy in the county of Somerset, by Frederick Hancock (vicar)
> > • St John of Bletsoe by John Brownbill (1931)
> > • St John Genealogy Project (which includes a large number of original sources)
> > • Stirnet and Complete Peerage cover the St Johns of Fonmon and Lageham. Luccombe is not specifically mentioned, but some of the names mentioned may also be from Instow and Luccombe.
> > Lots of words and at least two printed family trees of the St John family of Luccombe, which unfortunately differ.
> > There is a Thomas St John in one of the family trees, who was born in 1430 with sp written beside the name. SP means Sine Prole means no children? Not Sans Pareil! Thomas must have been c 43 when he married Alice Langham, so there is scope for an earlier marriage without children, or a very late marriage. It all depends on what information was available when the family tree was put together, in a situation where his two siblings were much higher profile. Thomas’s parents were Edward St John (18/2/1395 -1457) and Joan le Jewe (c 1400-) daughter of William and Alice le Jewe.
> > The case for Thomas depends on;
> > • Dates are right
> > • “Of Charing” is shared with Edward St John, who is shown as his father in the family tree
> > • he had a mother called Joan(ne), a sister called Joan(na) and a daughter called Joan(na).
> > • Reference to Thomas (and Joanna) in the provision made by Edward St John
> > Just need to understand the sp. Perhaps it was sp at the point when William dies in 1473.
> > Edward and Joan had children as follows;
> > • William St John, (c1420 – 20/9/1473) married Alice. Before leaving his property to William, Edward had made provision for his two younger children Joanna and Thomas
> > • Joanna St John (c 1425-5/6/1482) married Nicholas de Arundell of Trerice in Cornwall and received William’s property on the death of William’s widow Alice. East Luccombe and Selworthy were held by the Arundell family for hundreds of years until being passed by marriage to the Wentworth family (1768) and then the Acland family (1802) of Holnicot and Killerton. Selworthy and East Luccombe are now owned by the National Trust, following Sir Richard Acland’s gift in 1944.
> > • Thomas St John (c1430-) sp. See above
> > I have not yet found the document detailing the provision made by Edward for Thomas and it very possible that it was the property owned by Edward in Charing and where he died in 1457. It may just be coincidence that Burleigh Manor was also situated in Charing?
> > Edward’s father was Henry St John (c 1336- 24/9/1406), who married Isabelle with children as follows;
> > • Edward St John, (18/2/1395 – 1457) who married Joan Jewe (c 1400) daughter of William and Alice Jewe. Edward has left a will, filed under Edward St John of Charing. Edward had perfectly good properties in East Luccombe/Selworthy, so why is he titled “of Charing” for the purpose of his will?
> > Henry St John was the youngest son of Alexander St John and Margaret Arundell who was one of the Cornish family, and not a family member from the FitzAlan earls of Arundel.
> > • Sir Oliver St John (c1320-1373) who married Elizabeth Luccombe, had son John who married another Elizabeth and died abroad, without legitimate offspring. Other family trees give Oliver a second wife after Elizabeth’s death and a line that leads to the St John’s of Bletso. See below
> > • John St John c1322-bef 1380
> > • Alexandra St John c1324 -1375
> > • Theobald St John c 1330- bef 1380
> > • Henry St John c 1336 – 24/9/1406. IPM writ 10/10/1406 Exeter
> > After Alexander’s (aft 1351) and Oliver’s (8/1373) death, and the death of Oliver’s son John abroad in his father’s lifetime, Henry had outlived all of his siblings and took possession of the manors of East Luccombe and Selworthy. John’s widow Elizabeth tried to dispute this but without success; Henry remained in possession. Henry also held Stockleigh Luccombe in socage of the heirs of William Baggeputz by the service of one pair of white spurs.
> > The detail here comes from membrane 13 Nov 2 1339, Kennington;
> > • Licence for Alexander de Sancto Johanne and Elizabeth (widow of Hugh Luccombe) his wife and Oliver De Sancto Johanne and Elizabeth (Luccombe) his wife to Enfeoff Richard de Morcastre, parson of the church of Luccombe, of the manor of East Luccombe co Somerset, and the advowsons of the churches of Luccombe and Selworthy, held in chief as of the honour of Pynkeneye, and for him to re-grant the same to the said Alexander and Elizabeth his wife for life, with successive remainders in tail to Oliver and Elizabeth his wife, to John, Theobald and Henry, sons of the said Alexander, and reversion to the right heirs of the said John.
> > The Honour of Pinkney was owned by Hugh de Luccombe
> > Several sources suggest that the St Johns of Instow and Luccombe are the same as the St Johns of Fonmon/Faumont in Glamorgan. So I tried to make the data above fit what is known about the Fonmon St Johns.
> > Elizabeth Luccombe was born on 5 May 1320, as this date was attested before she married Oliver St John so there is one fixed date. The birth date of 1346 for Oliver suggested by several web sites seems far too late, allowing little time for Elizabeth Luccombe’s early death, a second marriage to Elizabeth Delabere and a son, another John who presented as an adult to Instow church in 1379 and 1387. One source even suggests a birthdate for the younger John of 1383 ie after Oliver’s death!
> > The 1346 birth date for Oliver seems to cause an extra generation to be added, allowing a Sir John St John who married Elizabeth Paveley, before the Alexander St John who married Elizabeth Umfreville, except that Alexander was called John who seems to have the same dates and wife as Alexander! Brownbill suggested that it was Collins who suggested the name of John, and this has been widely copied.
> > What is needed is a definitive family tree for the St Johns of Fonmon. Help!
> > Then I noticed that the St Johns Genealogy web site suggests Alexander as the son of Sir John St John of Lageham, 1st baron, so I have extended Alexander’s family to reflect this option.
> > .
> > *********************************************************************
> > Alexander St John, of Instow and East Luccombe, c1286- aft 1351. Born Stanton St John, Oxon. Died in Instow, Devon. Alexander married first Margaret Arundell (mother of the children), and then Elizabeth widow of Hugh Luccombe (-1323), whose daughter and heiress Elizabeth (1320-) married Alexander’s eldest son Sir Oliver (1320-1373).
> > The St John Project web site claims that Alexander was the youngest son of Sir John de St John, first baron St John of Lageham (c1255 – bef 7/1316). Although called baron of Lageham, in Surrey, they lived in Stanton St John, Oxfordshire. A major extra landholding in Swallowfield came by Roger St John’s (John’s father) marriage to a Despenser heir.
> > Many primary records are included within the St John Project web site and I have been very selective in including the following. These records have to tie a specific St John to a specific area.
> > One outstanding query relates to the wife shown for the first baron shown as Beatrix Broye, who I thought was married to a John de St John (c 1267 -aft 1346) of the Fonmon/Faumont line. Stirnet shows the wife of the first baron as Margaret, and Geni as Maud FitzNigel.
> > There are two references confirming that John de St John of Lageham held Instow (near Barnstaple, Devon)
> > 1296 held the fee of Instow. J Brownbill art cit 356 Cardiff Records Vol 1 (Cardiff 1898) 264
> > 1316 held the fee of Instow. Inquisitions and Assessments related to Feudal Aids 1284-1431 Vol (London 1899), 372, 375
> > Children as follows;
> > • John de St John, 2nd baron. C1276 (Lageham) died 16/6/1332
> > • William de St John. (c1278 – c 1353)
> > • Nicholas of Glympton, (c 1279 -1362)
> > • Thomas St John. (c1280 – c 1360) Died in Lageham
> > • Henry St John (c 1283- 1309). Cleric of Doddicombsleigh, Devon
> > • Laurence St John, ( c1284 -aft 1308) Hellestone, Devon
> > • Edward St John (c 1285- aft 1312) Tawstock, Devon
> > • Alexander St John (c 1286 -aft 1351), born Stanton St John. Templar?, died Instow
> > Alexander St John references
> > • 1307. Alexander son of John of Staunton (Stanton?) to grant land in Eversholt to the Abbot and convent of Woburn, Beds .
> > • 1316 Inherited Instow from his father?
> > • 1318 The Register of Bishop Grandisson (Instow). Alexander de Sancto Johanne presents to Instow
> > • 1333 Tawstock (near Barnstaple)“Alexander de Sancto Johanne, Knight Templar. Most curious of all, just outside Barnstaple lies a chapel of St John, very near to the interestingly named village of Templeton, the parish records of which list one Alexander de Sancto Johanne as being a regular attendee at the chapel and describes him as a Knight Templar, which is odd because the records are dated 1333, 20 years after the Templars were supposed to have been forced to leave the order or be imprisoned”.
> > • 2/11/1339 Alexander St John was granted East Luccombe on his marriage to Elizabeth Luccombe, and his son Oliver’s marriage to her daughter.
> > • 1351 The register of Bishop Grandisson (for Instow). This is far later than the dates for the John/Alexander St John of Fonmon.
> >
> > All feedback welcome!
> >
> > Colin Piper
> You have done an impressive amount of work at a time I have been working on the same problem from a different angle. The two earliest surviving Cotton family pedigrees are by Sir Robert Bruce Cotton and the other William Burton (1575-1645), a noted antiquarian. Both were active in the late 16th and early 17th centuries and were friends of one another. Both produced Cotton family pedigrees from roughly the same time during the early 17th century.. The two pedigrees, however, differ significantly in detail. The one by Sir Robert Bruce Cotton was aimed at showing that he had royal ancestry and he had little interest in his own male line ancestry where it diverged from his female-line derived royal ancestry. In fact, he showed extreme carelessness and got almost everything wrong (and that includes the senior Cotton family line which Richard Cotton belonged to). On the other hand, William Burton, by profession, was a lawyer and tried to base everything he produced on scholarship. Moreover, he was actually rather more closely connected with Richard Cotton by way of marriage and in a position to have actually talked with people who would have met and had memories of that man. Richard's daughter Maude married Francis Repington as her first husband and had several children by him. When he died, she remarried to George Willoughby and is said to have had a further two sons. George's brother had married a sister of the Duke of Suffolk and second cousin of Queen Elizabeth II. The daughter of this couple became Lady Arundell of Wardour. George Willoughby lived until the last years of the 16th century and the oldest son of Francis Repington and Maude Cotton lived until the early 17th century. Richard Cotton, himself, is often said to have died about 1534 because that was the year a church brass engraving was made describing his wife as being Alice Savage the daughter of Gilbert Savage the younger son of Sir John Savage, kt., but it can be shown by legal documents that Richard and Alice lived until well into the 1540s. The Repington's oldest son was born in 1534, so would have been of an age to have met and remembered his grandparents while they were still alive. The sister of Maude Cotton's husband, however, became the grandmother of William Burton. Additionally, William Burton had a direct Cotton descent through a more distant Burton ancestor marrying a Cotton belonging to the same larger Cotton family that Richard Cotton and Sir Robert Bruce Cotton were both descended from. According to both Cotton pedigrees, Francis Repington's wife Matilda Cotton was the daughter of Alice Savage. However, while John Cotton of London and Humphrey Cotton of Bould and Nicholas Cotton of Lichfield Cathedral were specified as being the children of Joan St. John by Sir Robert Bruce Cotton's pedigree, in William Burton's pedigree we have a completely different picture. Here, the name Humphrey Cotton appears twice, once as a song of Joan St. John and another time as the son of Alice Savage. Moreover, in a church survey of about 1532, Humphrey Cotton also appears twice in Hampstall Ridware, once as a part of Richard Cotton's household and once as the apparently still unmarried head of an independent household. In doing research recently, though, I have come across new sources, creating an even more complicated situation. Is Sir Robert Bruce Cotton right or is William Burton right or are both wrong. At the moment, I am not sure. For this reason, I have been doing research on the Savage connection because it was easier to work on for someone like me who is located in Japan. I think, though, that between your efforts and mine, we are well on our way toward solving problems that must have seemed confusing even 400 years ago.

On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 12:04:35 AM UTC+9, Colin Piper wrote:
> In Search of Thomas St John, of Charing Kent. Related names Cotton, Savage, Langham, Arundell
> I am trying to find the ancestry of Thomas St John of Charing in Kent, and think that I have made a breakthrough.
> This note is as short as possible and if anyone wants more detail on any of the references then please let me know.
> I hope that names in bold are direct ancestors.
> I consider myself to be descended from the marriage of Richard Cotton (c1480- aft 1534), of Hamstall Ridware (Staffordshire) and Johanna St John (c 1476 -1534), daughter of Thomas St John of Charing, (Kent).
> The marriage above is documented on the sides of an Altar Tomb in Hamstall Ridware Church, dedicated to John Cotton (-c1478) and Joanna Fitzherbert of Norbury (c1435-c 1525), and lists brief details of their 15 children. This Altar Tomb must have been erected in the lifetime of their children as it lists some that died early and who are not documented elsewhere. If anyone wants a copy of the transcriptions on the side of the Altar Tomb then please let me know.
> The relevant wording for Richard Cotton is “Richard mar Jahne one of the daughters and heirs to Thomas St John of Charyng in Kent, also to Alis daughter to Gilbert Savage.”
> The wording for Richard’s elder brother John Cotton is “John mar Alice, daughter and heir to Richard Langham, of Langham, co Suffolk”
> The fact that Alice Langham was married first to Thomas St John, is not covered above, but is clearly shown via the Langham of Langham family tree shown in Muskett’s Suffolk Manorial Families.
> At this point, the following extra information is available
> • Alice Langham and Thomas St John married in 1473
> • There were 4 daughters; Joanna, Bridget (married William Waller), Elizabeth (married John Haward), and NN
> • The manors shown for Thomas (Panfield and Hempstead, both in Essex) were those of his wife Alice, so she must have had some wealth. No mention of Charing in Kent, so assume that Thomas did not then have a connection with Charing.
> • Thomas died around 1478/9 ( 4 daughters after 1473 v Alice marriage to John in 1481)
> • Alice subsequently married John Cotton in 1481. John was born c 1460, Alice probably c1455, and a new family of Cottons arose in Panfield
> • Richard Cotton was the youngest surviving brother of John Cotton, and married Joanna the daughter of Alice Langham and Thomas St John
> A great deal of personal research about St John families in Charing, Kent turned up absolutely nothing about Thomas and very little about the St John family. This includes;
> • Edward Hasted’s History and Topographicial Survey of the County of Kent, Vol 7(1798) describes “…..Burleigh or Burley Manor,( Charing) came into the possession of the St Johns who bore for their arms Argent, a mullet sable on a chief gules, three mullets pierced of the first. At length Avis daughter of William St John of Charing carried it in marriage to Humphry Barrey esq who afterwards dwelt here, and was from hence styled Barrey, of Charing. But it does not seem to have remained long in this name, for it soon afterwards came into the possession of a family, called Dallingridge, of eminent note in Hampshire, whose arms were Argent, a cross engailed, gules; and Sir Edward Dallingridge by fine levied in the first year of King Richard II (1377), passed it away to Roger Dallingridge and Alice his wife, and they not long afterwards conveyed it by sale to Thomas Brockhull of Calehill….”. Few dates and vague. But see later on
> • Edward St John of Barlavington (who was also the Edward St John of Kent covered later on) is shown as a debtor on 21/10/1390 with a debt proven against William Best, the elder, of Charing in Kent
> • A Canterbury Will existed for an Edward St John of Charing in 1457. In latin OK, but the script was hard for me to read. But see later on.
> In the course of this research I learned a lot about the various St John lines. This is not the place or space to describe how the various lines fit in with each other, and how so many Johns, Edwards, Olivers, and Alexanders with similar dates have resulted in so many inconsistent family trees, even the professionally family trees!
> This research proved useful in helping my wife’s research her own St John ancestors, where the most recent example was the Barbara St John of Bletso who married Thomas William Coventry, the 6th Earl of Coventry.
> During 2015 a long discussion evolved in Soc Gen Med about the five Sir Edward St Johns who were alive at the same time during the 1300’s and included the mention of a Sir Edward St John, “of Kent” died before 1398, who married Alice (died 1422) the widow of Roger Dallingridge. Alice was said to own many manors in Kent. My research showed that Burleigh Manor, Charing was one of those and transferred to Roger and Alice Dallingridge in 1377. Roger Dallingridge died in 1380, and Alice subsequently married Sir Edward St John. I am taking Edward Hasted’s words “not long afterwards” meaning as before Roger Dallingridge’s death, so the manor of Burleigh almost made it back to the St Johns before being sold off again. But Edward St John did have dealings in Charing as judged by the debitor note above.
> If “my” Thomas St John of Charing had any connection with Burleigh Manor (even if he did not own it) there is some circumstantial evidence that Thomas was somehow descended from the marriage of Sir Edward St John of Kent and Alice. But I just needed to find the descent to Thomas.
> Alas, I have not found this link. Edward St John (-1398) and Alice had a son William (-1437) who had a son John, who had a daughter Elizabeth, so no obvious way through to the dates for Thomas St John. If anyone has better information than this, then please let me know.
> It seemed a brick wall.
> Amongst the Canterbury Wills was one for Edward St John of Charing in Kent who died in 1457 (probate date 22/12/1457) and who just might have been Thomas’s father. This Will was in latin and was translated for me by an expert at Devon Heritage Centre in Exeter.
> Edward St John of Charing (-1457) proved also to be Edward St John of East Luccombe and Selworthy (-1457), both on the Devon/Somerset border! Edward’s will makes various gifts to the churches in these villages, leaves a house to his servant, and leaves the estate to his eldest son William. If you want a copy of the will then please let me know.
> I was not expecting this, so research took off in a new direction.
> The St Johns of East Luccombe are described in ;
> • Wikipedia (very briefly)
> • Geni (very patchy)
> • The Parish of Selworthy in the county of Somerset, by Frederick Hancock (vicar)
> • St John of Bletsoe by John Brownbill (1931)
> • St John Genealogy Project (which includes a large number of original sources)
> • Stirnet and Complete Peerage cover the St Johns of Fonmon and Lageham. Luccombe is not specifically mentioned, but some of the names mentioned may also be from Instow and Luccombe.
> Lots of words and at least two printed family trees of the St John family of Luccombe, which unfortunately differ.
> There is a Thomas St John in one of the family trees, who was born in 1430 with sp written beside the name. SP means Sine Prole means no children? Not Sans Pareil! Thomas must have been c 43 when he married Alice Langham, so there is scope for an earlier marriage without children, or a very late marriage. It all depends on what information was available when the family tree was put together, in a situation where his two siblings were much higher profile. Thomas’s parents were Edward St John (18/2/1395 -1457) and Joan le Jewe (c 1400-) daughter of William and Alice le Jewe.
> The case for Thomas depends on;
> • Dates are right
> • “Of Charing” is shared with Edward St John, who is shown as his father in the family tree
> • he had a mother called Joan(ne), a sister called Joan(na) and a daughter called Joan(na).
> • Reference to Thomas (and Joanna) in the provision made by Edward St John
> Just need to understand the sp. Perhaps it was sp at the point when William dies in 1473.
> Edward and Joan had children as follows;
> • William St John, (c1420 – 20/9/1473) married Alice. Before leaving his property to William, Edward had made provision for his two younger children Joanna and Thomas
> • Joanna St John (c 1425-5/6/1482) married Nicholas de Arundell of Trerice in Cornwall and received William’s property on the death of William’s widow Alice. East Luccombe and Selworthy were held by the Arundell family for hundreds of years until being passed by marriage to the Wentworth family (1768) and then the Acland family (1802) of Holnicot and Killerton. Selworthy and East Luccombe are now owned by the National Trust, following Sir Richard Acland’s gift in 1944.
> • Thomas St John (c1430-) sp. See above
> I have not yet found the document detailing the provision made by Edward for Thomas and it very possible that it was the property owned by Edward in Charing and where he died in 1457. It may just be coincidence that Burleigh Manor was also situated in Charing?
> Edward’s father was Henry St John (c 1336- 24/9/1406), who married Isabelle with children as follows;
> • Edward St John, (18/2/1395 – 1457) who married Joan Jewe (c 1400) daughter of William and Alice Jewe. Edward has left a will, filed under Edward St John of Charing. Edward had perfectly good properties in East Luccombe/Selworthy, so why is he titled “of Charing” for the purpose of his will?
> Henry St John was the youngest son of Alexander St John and Margaret Arundell who was one of the Cornish family, and not a family member from the FitzAlan earls of Arundel.
> • Sir Oliver St John (c1320-1373) who married Elizabeth Luccombe, had son John who married another Elizabeth and died abroad, without legitimate offspring. Other family trees give Oliver a second wife after Elizabeth’s death and a line that leads to the St John’s of Bletso. See below
> • John St John c1322-bef 1380
> • Alexandra St John c1324 -1375
> • Theobald St John c 1330- bef 1380
> • Henry St John c 1336 – 24/9/1406. IPM writ 10/10/1406 Exeter
> After Alexander’s (aft 1351) and Oliver’s (8/1373) death, and the death of Oliver’s son John abroad in his father’s lifetime, Henry had outlived all of his siblings and took possession of the manors of East Luccombe and Selworthy. John’s widow Elizabeth tried to dispute this but without success; Henry remained in possession. Henry also held Stockleigh Luccombe in socage of the heirs of William Baggeputz by the service of one pair of white spurs.
> The detail here comes from membrane 13 Nov 2 1339, Kennington;
> • Licence for Alexander de Sancto Johanne and Elizabeth (widow of Hugh Luccombe) his wife and Oliver De Sancto Johanne and Elizabeth (Luccombe) his wife to Enfeoff Richard de Morcastre, parson of the church of Luccombe, of the manor of East Luccombe co Somerset, and the advowsons of the churches of Luccombe and Selworthy, held in chief as of the honour of Pynkeneye, and for him to re-grant the same to the said Alexander and Elizabeth his wife for life, with successive remainders in tail to Oliver and Elizabeth his wife, to John, Theobald and Henry, sons of the said Alexander, and reversion to the right heirs of the said John.
> The Honour of Pinkney was owned by Hugh de Luccombe
> Several sources suggest that the St Johns of Instow and Luccombe are the same as the St Johns of Fonmon/Faumont in Glamorgan. So I tried to make the data above fit what is known about the Fonmon St Johns.
> Elizabeth Luccombe was born on 5 May 1320, as this date was attested before she married Oliver St John so there is one fixed date. The birth date of 1346 for Oliver suggested by several web sites seems far too late, allowing little time for Elizabeth Luccombe’s early death, a second marriage to Elizabeth Delabere and a son, another John who presented as an adult to Instow church in 1379 and 1387. One source even suggests a birthdate for the younger John of 1383 ie after Oliver’s death!
> The 1346 birth date for Oliver seems to cause an extra generation to be added, allowing a Sir John St John who married Elizabeth Paveley, before the Alexander St John who married Elizabeth Umfreville, except that Alexander was called John who seems to have the same dates and wife as Alexander! Brownbill suggested that it was Collins who suggested the name of John, and this has been widely copied.
> What is needed is a definitive family tree for the St Johns of Fonmon. Help!
> Then I noticed that the St Johns Genealogy web site suggests Alexander as the son of Sir John St John of Lageham, 1st baron, so I have extended Alexander’s family to reflect this option.
> .
> *********************************************************************
> Alexander St John, of Instow and East Luccombe, c1286- aft 1351. Born Stanton St John, Oxon. Died in Instow, Devon. Alexander married first Margaret Arundell (mother of the children), and then Elizabeth widow of Hugh Luccombe (-1323), whose daughter and heiress Elizabeth (1320-) married Alexander’s eldest son Sir Oliver (1320-1373).
> The St John Project web site claims that Alexander was the youngest son of Sir John de St John, first baron St John of Lageham (c1255 – bef 7/1316). Although called baron of Lageham, in Surrey, they lived in Stanton St John, Oxfordshire. A major extra landholding in Swallowfield came by Roger St John’s (John’s father) marriage to a Despenser heir.
> Many primary records are included within the St John Project web site and I have been very selective in including the following. These records have to tie a specific St John to a specific area.
> One outstanding query relates to the wife shown for the first baron shown as Beatrix Broye, who I thought was married to a John de St John (c 1267 -aft 1346) of the Fonmon/Faumont line. Stirnet shows the wife of the first baron as Margaret, and Geni as Maud FitzNigel.
> There are two references confirming that John de St John of Lageham held Instow (near Barnstaple, Devon)
> 1296 held the fee of Instow. J Brownbill art cit 356 Cardiff Records Vol 1 (Cardiff 1898) 264
> 1316 held the fee of Instow. Inquisitions and Assessments related to Feudal Aids 1284-1431 Vol (London 1899), 372, 375
> Children as follows;
> • John de St John, 2nd baron. C1276 (Lageham) died 16/6/1332
> • William de St John. (c1278 – c 1353)
> • Nicholas of Glympton, (c 1279 -1362)
> • Thomas St John. (c1280 – c 1360) Died in Lageham
> • Henry St John (c 1283- 1309). Cleric of Doddicombsleigh, Devon
> • Laurence St John, ( c1284 -aft 1308) Hellestone, Devon
> • Edward St John (c 1285- aft 1312) Tawstock, Devon
> • Alexander St John (c 1286 -aft 1351), born Stanton St John. Templar?, died Instow
> Alexander St John references
> • 1307. Alexander son of John of Staunton (Stanton?) to grant land in Eversholt to the Abbot and convent of Woburn, Beds .
> • 1316 Inherited Instow from his father?
> • 1318 The Register of Bishop Grandisson (Instow). Alexander de Sancto Johanne presents to Instow
> • 1333 Tawstock (near Barnstaple)“Alexander de Sancto Johanne, Knight Templar. Most curious of all, just outside Barnstaple lies a chapel of St John, very near to the interestingly named village of Templeton, the parish records of which list one Alexander de Sancto Johanne as being a regular attendee at the chapel and describes him as a Knight Templar, which is odd because the records are dated 1333, 20 years after the Templars were supposed to have been forced to leave the order or be imprisoned”.
> • 2/11/1339 Alexander St John was granted East Luccombe on his marriage to Elizabeth Luccombe, and his son Oliver’s marriage to her daughter.
> • 1351 The register of Bishop Grandisson (for Instow). This is far later than the dates for the John/Alexander St John of Fonmon.
>
> All feedback welcome!
>
> Colin Piper
Dear Mr Piper,
Thanks to a pdf of the original UK National Archive complaint by Richard Cotton, the husband of Joan St. John and of Alice Savage, against a certain Alice Eyton for not returning presents he had given her as a quid pro quo for a promise of marriage, I am in a position to give approximates of Richard's two marriages. The dating on the back side of the document would indicate that the complaint was in London sometime in November 1514, a date consistent with other datable documents having their origin in the same bundle of chancery cases dealt with by Archbishop Warham of Canterbury. Richard's son Nicholas can be dated as having been born no later than 1512 but more probably at a date of around 1507 is more likely. Richard has at least one son named Humphrey for whom a birth year of no later than 1506 can inferred. Richard's son John is sometimes mentioned as the oldest son but due to the very late dates his children were born is unlikely to have been born much before 1505. There is another presumed son Francis mentioned in a church census of around 1532. In the same census, Humphrey Cotton is mentioned for Hampstall Ridware twice, once as a child of Richard and once as an independent householder. It is generally assumed that these are the same individual, but Burton's family tree dating to the early 17th century shows two, an older Humphrey (Joan St. John's son) who is given no wife and a younger one (Alice Savage's) who is. Various land dealings involving Richard and Humphrey make it likely that the older Humphrey was the only Humphrey, but still do not make it impossible that a younger one existed, too. If the younger one did exist, though, the before-mentioned land dealings make it virtually impossible for him to have been born later than the very beginning of 1516. On the balance, it would seem to me that Richard Cotton and Joan St. John were both approaching 30 when they married and seem to have had at least three sons in relatively quick order. Francis (spelled Frances, but not necessarily indicating a female in the early 16th century) I think is just as likely to have been a son of Joan St. John as of Alice Savage. The reason for thinking that this is a male rather than a female is because of male Francis Cottons appearing in the same part of Staffordshire later in the 16th century for whom DNA testing of possible descendants would indicate a common descent with Humphrey and John's descendants. Nevertheless, it is not impossible for Frances to have been a daughter, but again of which woman is not clear. For onomastic reasons, Richard's three daughters Maude, Ellen, and Dorothy are all likely to have been Alice's daughters. Concerning Maude, in particular, there is absolutely no doubt, as both of the two early 17th century pedigree's show her as Alice's daughter by Richard. Concerning Joan St. John, it is now clear that she died by mid-1514, and it would seem that Richard was looking for a wife who would take care of his children for. Their ages could have been as young as two years of age for the youngest to no more than ten years of age for the oldest. My estimated birth year for Alice is around 1490, making her at the time of her marriage already past suitable marriage age. Richard Cotton would have been born around 1475, thus contemporary with his first wife, but not his second. I will continue to do more research. I have uncovered several leads which once I can examine pdf's of the original documents will allow me to clarify things further. Incidentally, both of Richard's wives have a very interesting ancestry. On Joan's side, her mother Alice Langham had Sir John Hawkwood (a late 14th century English national military hero) as an ancestor. On Alice's side, her great grandmother was the sister of the first earl of Derby and thus the sister-in-law of Margaret Beaufort, the mother of Henry VII by Edmund Tudor, the earl of Richmond.
Best wishes,
Hikaru

On Sunday, 14 May 2023 at 15:25:05 UTC+1, Hickory wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 12:04:35 AM UTC+9, Colin Piper wrote:
> > In Search of Thomas St John, of Charing Kent. Related names Cotton, Savage, Langham, Arundell
> > I am trying to find the ancestry of Thomas St John of Charing in Kent, and think that I have made a breakthrough.
> > This note is as short as possible and if anyone wants more detail on any of the references then please let me know.
> > I hope that names in bold are direct ancestors.
> > I consider myself to be descended from the marriage of Richard Cotton (c1480- aft 1534), of Hamstall Ridware (Staffordshire) and Johanna St John (c 1476 -1534), daughter of Thomas St John of Charing, (Kent).
> > The marriage above is documented on the sides of an Altar Tomb in Hamstall Ridware Church, dedicated to John Cotton (-c1478) and Joanna Fitzherbert of Norbury (c1435-c 1525), and lists brief details of their 15 children. This Altar Tomb must have been erected in the lifetime of their children as it lists some that died early and who are not documented elsewhere. If anyone wants a copy of the transcriptions on the side of the Altar Tomb then please let me know.
> > The relevant wording for Richard Cotton is “Richard mar Jahne one of the daughters and heirs to Thomas St John of Charyng in Kent, also to Alis daughter to Gilbert Savage.”
> > The wording for Richard’s elder brother John Cotton is “John mar Alice, daughter and heir to Richard Langham, of Langham, co Suffolk”
> > The fact that Alice Langham was married first to Thomas St John, is not covered above, but is clearly shown via the Langham of Langham family tree shown in Muskett’s Suffolk Manorial Families.
> > At this point, the following extra information is available
> > • Alice Langham and Thomas St John married in 1473
> > • There were 4 daughters; Joanna, Bridget (married William Waller), Elizabeth (married John Haward), and NN
> > • The manors shown for Thomas (Panfield and Hempstead, both in Essex) were those of his wife Alice, so she must have had some wealth. No mention of Charing in Kent, so assume that Thomas did not then have a connection with Charing.
> > • Thomas died around 1478/9 ( 4 daughters after 1473 v Alice marriage to John in 1481)
> > • Alice subsequently married John Cotton in 1481. John was born c 1460, Alice probably c1455, and a new family of Cottons arose in Panfield
> > • Richard Cotton was the youngest surviving brother of John Cotton, and married Joanna the daughter of Alice Langham and Thomas St John
> > A great deal of personal research about St John families in Charing, Kent turned up absolutely nothing about Thomas and very little about the St John family. This includes;
> > • Edward Hasted’s History and Topographicial Survey of the County of Kent, Vol 7(1798) describes “…..Burleigh or Burley Manor,( Charing) came into the possession of the St Johns who bore for their arms Argent, a mullet sable on a chief gules, three mullets pierced of the first. At length Avis daughter of William St John of Charing carried it in marriage to Humphry Barrey esq who afterwards dwelt here, and was from hence styled Barrey, of Charing. But it does not seem to have remained long in this name, for it soon afterwards came into the possession of a family, called Dallingridge, of eminent note in Hampshire, whose arms were Argent, a cross engailed, gules; and Sir Edward Dallingridge by fine levied in the first year of King Richard II (1377), passed it away to Roger Dallingridge and Alice his wife, and they not long afterwards conveyed it by sale to Thomas Brockhull of Calehill….”. Few dates and vague. But see later on
> > • Edward St John of Barlavington (who was also the Edward St John of Kent covered later on) is shown as a debtor on 21/10/1390 with a debt proven against William Best, the elder, of Charing in Kent
> > • A Canterbury Will existed for an Edward St John of Charing in 1457. In latin OK, but the script was hard for me to read. But see later on.
> > In the course of this research I learned a lot about the various St John lines. This is not the place or space to describe how the various lines fit in with each other, and how so many Johns, Edwards, Olivers, and Alexanders with similar dates have resulted in so many inconsistent family trees, even the professionally family trees!
> > This research proved useful in helping my wife’s research her own St John ancestors, where the most recent example was the Barbara St John of Bletso who married Thomas William Coventry, the 6th Earl of Coventry.
> > During 2015 a long discussion evolved in Soc Gen Med about the five Sir Edward St Johns who were alive at the same time during the 1300’s and included the mention of a Sir Edward St John, “of Kent” died before 1398, who married Alice (died 1422) the widow of Roger Dallingridge. Alice was said to own many manors in Kent. My research showed that Burleigh Manor, Charing was one of those and transferred to Roger and Alice Dallingridge in 1377. Roger Dallingridge died in 1380, and Alice subsequently married Sir Edward St John. I am taking Edward Hasted’s words “not long afterwards” meaning as before Roger Dallingridge’s death, so the manor of Burleigh almost made it back to the St Johns before being sold off again. But Edward St John did have dealings in Charing as judged by the debitor note above.
> > If “my” Thomas St John of Charing had any connection with Burleigh Manor (even if he did not own it) there is some circumstantial evidence that Thomas was somehow descended from the marriage of Sir Edward St John of Kent and Alice. But I just needed to find the descent to Thomas.
> > Alas, I have not found this link. Edward St John (-1398) and Alice had a son William (-1437) who had a son John, who had a daughter Elizabeth, so no obvious way through to the dates for Thomas St John. If anyone has better information than this, then please let me know.
> > It seemed a brick wall.
> > Amongst the Canterbury Wills was one for Edward St John of Charing in Kent who died in 1457 (probate date 22/12/1457) and who just might have been Thomas’s father. This Will was in latin and was translated for me by an expert at Devon Heritage Centre in Exeter.
> > Edward St John of Charing (-1457) proved also to be Edward St John of East Luccombe and Selworthy (-1457), both on the Devon/Somerset border! Edward’s will makes various gifts to the churches in these villages, leaves a house to his servant, and leaves the estate to his eldest son William. If you want a copy of the will then please let me know.
> > I was not expecting this, so research took off in a new direction.
> > The St Johns of East Luccombe are described in ;
> > • Wikipedia (very briefly)
> > • Geni (very patchy)
> > • The Parish of Selworthy in the county of Somerset, by Frederick Hancock (vicar)
> > • St John of Bletsoe by John Brownbill (1931)
> > • St John Genealogy Project (which includes a large number of original sources)
> > • Stirnet and Complete Peerage cover the St Johns of Fonmon and Lageham. Luccombe is not specifically mentioned, but some of the names mentioned may also be from Instow and Luccombe.
> > Lots of words and at least two printed family trees of the St John family of Luccombe, which unfortunately differ.
> > There is a Thomas St John in one of the family trees, who was born in 1430 with sp written beside the name. SP means Sine Prole means no children? Not Sans Pareil! Thomas must have been c 43 when he married Alice Langham, so there is scope for an earlier marriage without children, or a very late marriage. It all depends on what information was available when the family tree was put together, in a situation where his two siblings were much higher profile. Thomas’s parents were Edward St John (18/2/1395 -1457) and Joan le Jewe (c 1400-) daughter of William and Alice le Jewe.
> > The case for Thomas depends on;
> > • Dates are right
> > • “Of Charing” is shared with Edward St John, who is shown as his father in the family tree
> > • he had a mother called Joan(ne), a sister called Joan(na) and a daughter called Joan(na).
> > • Reference to Thomas (and Joanna) in the provision made by Edward St John
> > Just need to understand the sp. Perhaps it was sp at the point when William dies in 1473.
> > Edward and Joan had children as follows;
> > • William St John, (c1420 – 20/9/1473) married Alice. Before leaving his property to William, Edward had made provision for his two younger children Joanna and Thomas
> > • Joanna St John (c 1425-5/6/1482) married Nicholas de Arundell of Trerice in Cornwall and received William’s property on the death of William’s widow Alice. East Luccombe and Selworthy were held by the Arundell family for hundreds of years until being passed by marriage to the Wentworth family (1768) and then the Acland family (1802) of Holnicot and Killerton. Selworthy and East Luccombe are now owned by the National Trust, following Sir Richard Acland’s gift in 1944.
> > • Thomas St John (c1430-) sp. See above
> > I have not yet found the document detailing the provision made by Edward for Thomas and it very possible that it was the property owned by Edward in Charing and where he died in 1457. It may just be coincidence that Burleigh Manor was also situated in Charing?
> > Edward’s father was Henry St John (c 1336- 24/9/1406), who married Isabelle with children as follows;
> > • Edward St John, (18/2/1395 – 1457) who married Joan Jewe (c 1400) daughter of William and Alice Jewe. Edward has left a will, filed under Edward St John of Charing. Edward had perfectly good properties in East Luccombe/Selworthy, so why is he titled “of Charing” for the purpose of his will?
> > Henry St John was the youngest son of Alexander St John and Margaret Arundell who was one of the Cornish family, and not a family member from the FitzAlan earls of Arundel.
> > • Sir Oliver St John (c1320-1373) who married Elizabeth Luccombe, had son John who married another Elizabeth and died abroad, without legitimate offspring. Other family trees give Oliver a second wife after Elizabeth’s death and a line that leads to the St John’s of Bletso. See below
> > • John St John c1322-bef 1380
> > • Alexandra St John c1324 -1375
> > • Theobald St John c 1330- bef 1380
> > • Henry St John c 1336 – 24/9/1406. IPM writ 10/10/1406 Exeter
> > After Alexander’s (aft 1351) and Oliver’s (8/1373) death, and the death of Oliver’s son John abroad in his father’s lifetime, Henry had outlived all of his siblings and took possession of the manors of East Luccombe and Selworthy. John’s widow Elizabeth tried to dispute this but without success; Henry remained in possession. Henry also held Stockleigh Luccombe in socage of the heirs of William Baggeputz by the service of one pair of white spurs.
> > The detail here comes from membrane 13 Nov 2 1339, Kennington;
> > • Licence for Alexander de Sancto Johanne and Elizabeth (widow of Hugh Luccombe) his wife and Oliver De Sancto Johanne and Elizabeth (Luccombe) his wife to Enfeoff Richard de Morcastre, parson of the church of Luccombe, of the manor of East Luccombe co Somerset, and the advowsons of the churches of Luccombe and Selworthy, held in chief as of the honour of Pynkeneye, and for him to re-grant the same to the said Alexander and Elizabeth his wife for life, with successive remainders in tail to Oliver and Elizabeth his wife, to John, Theobald and Henry, sons of the said Alexander, and reversion to the right heirs of the said John.
> > The Honour of Pinkney was owned by Hugh de Luccombe
> > Several sources suggest that the St Johns of Instow and Luccombe are the same as the St Johns of Fonmon/Faumont in Glamorgan. So I tried to make the data above fit what is known about the Fonmon St Johns.
> > Elizabeth Luccombe was born on 5 May 1320, as this date was attested before she married Oliver St John so there is one fixed date. The birth date of 1346 for Oliver suggested by several web sites seems far too late, allowing little time for Elizabeth Luccombe’s early death, a second marriage to Elizabeth Delabere and a son, another John who presented as an adult to Instow church in 1379 and 1387. One source even suggests a birthdate for the younger John of 1383 ie after Oliver’s death!
> > The 1346 birth date for Oliver seems to cause an extra generation to be added, allowing a Sir John St John who married Elizabeth Paveley, before the Alexander St John who married Elizabeth Umfreville, except that Alexander was called John who seems to have the same dates and wife as Alexander! Brownbill suggested that it was Collins who suggested the name of John, and this has been widely copied.
> > What is needed is a definitive family tree for the St Johns of Fonmon. Help!
> > Then I noticed that the St Johns Genealogy web site suggests Alexander as the son of Sir John St John of Lageham, 1st baron, so I have extended Alexander’s family to reflect this option.
> > .
> > *********************************************************************
> > Alexander St John, of Instow and East Luccombe, c1286- aft 1351. Born Stanton St John, Oxon. Died in Instow, Devon. Alexander married first Margaret Arundell (mother of the children), and then Elizabeth widow of Hugh Luccombe (-1323), whose daughter and heiress Elizabeth (1320-) married Alexander’s eldest son Sir Oliver (1320-1373).
> > The St John Project web site claims that Alexander was the youngest son of Sir John de St John, first baron St John of Lageham (c1255 – bef 7/1316). Although called baron of Lageham, in Surrey, they lived in Stanton St John, Oxfordshire. A major extra landholding in Swallowfield came by Roger St John’s (John’s father) marriage to a Despenser heir.
> > Many primary records are included within the St John Project web site and I have been very selective in including the following. These records have to tie a specific St John to a specific area.
> > One outstanding query relates to the wife shown for the first baron shown as Beatrix Broye, who I thought was married to a John de St John (c 1267 -aft 1346) of the Fonmon/Faumont line. Stirnet shows the wife of the first baron as Margaret, and Geni as Maud FitzNigel.
> > There are two references confirming that John de St John of Lageham held Instow (near Barnstaple, Devon)
> > 1296 held the fee of Instow. J Brownbill art cit 356 Cardiff Records Vol 1 (Cardiff 1898) 264
> > 1316 held the fee of Instow. Inquisitions and Assessments related to Feudal Aids 1284-1431 Vol (London 1899), 372, 375
> > Children as follows;
> > • John de St John, 2nd baron. C1276 (Lageham) died 16/6/1332
> > • William de St John. (c1278 – c 1353)
> > • Nicholas of Glympton, (c 1279 -1362)
> > • Thomas St John. (c1280 – c 1360) Died in Lageham
> > • Henry St John (c 1283- 1309). Cleric of Doddicombsleigh, Devon
> > • Laurence St John, ( c1284 -aft 1308) Hellestone, Devon
> > • Edward St John (c 1285- aft 1312) Tawstock, Devon
> > • Alexander St John (c 1286 -aft 1351), born Stanton St John. Templar?, died Instow
> > Alexander St John references
> > • 1307. Alexander son of John of Staunton (Stanton?) to grant land in Eversholt to the Abbot and convent of Woburn, Beds .
> > • 1316 Inherited Instow from his father?
> > • 1318 The Register of Bishop Grandisson (Instow). Alexander de Sancto Johanne presents to Instow
> > • 1333 Tawstock (near Barnstaple)“Alexander de Sancto Johanne, Knight Templar. Most curious of all, just outside Barnstaple lies a chapel of St John, very near to the interestingly named village of Templeton, the parish records of which list one Alexander de Sancto Johanne as being a regular attendee at the chapel and describes him as a Knight Templar, which is odd because the records are dated 1333, 20 years after the Templars were supposed to have been forced to leave the order or be imprisoned”.
> > • 2/11/1339 Alexander St John was granted East Luccombe on his marriage to Elizabeth Luccombe, and his son Oliver’s marriage to her daughter.
> > • 1351 The register of Bishop Grandisson (for Instow). This is far later than the dates for the John/Alexander St John of Fonmon.
> >
> > All feedback welcome!
> >
> > Colin Piper
> Dear Mr Piper,
> Thanks to a pdf of the original UK National Archive complaint by Richard Cotton, the husband of Joan St. John and of Alice Savage, against a certain Alice Eyton for not returning presents he had given her as a quid pro quo for a promise of marriage, I am in a position to give approximates of Richard's two marriages. The dating on the back side of the document would indicate that the complaint was in London sometime in November 1514, a date consistent with other datable documents having their origin in the same bundle of chancery cases dealt with by Archbishop Warham of Canterbury. Richard's son Nicholas can be dated as having been born no later than 1512 but more probably at a date of around 1507 is more likely. Richard has at least one son named Humphrey for whom a birth year of no later than 1506 can inferred. Richard's son John is sometimes mentioned as the oldest son but due to the very late dates his children were born is unlikely to have been born much before 1505. There is another presumed son Francis mentioned in a church census of around 1532. In the same census, Humphrey Cotton is mentioned for Hampstall Ridware twice, once as a child of Richard and once as an independent householder. It is generally assumed that these are the same individual, but Burton's family tree dating to the early 17th century shows two, an older Humphrey (Joan St. John's son) who is given no wife and a younger one (Alice Savage's) who is. Various land dealings involving Richard and Humphrey make it likely that the older Humphrey was the only Humphrey, but still do not make it impossible that a younger one existed, too. If the younger one did exist, though, the before-mentioned land dealings make it virtually impossible for him to have been born later than the very beginning of 1516. On the balance, it would seem to me that Richard Cotton and Joan St. John were both approaching 30 when they married and seem to have had at least three sons in relatively quick order. Francis (spelled Frances, but not necessarily indicating a female in the early 16th century) I think is just as likely to have been a son of Joan St. John as of Alice Savage. The reason for thinking that this is a male rather than a female is because of male Francis Cottons appearing in the same part of Staffordshire later in the 16th century for whom DNA testing of possible descendants would indicate a common descent with Humphrey and John's descendants. Nevertheless, it is not impossible for Frances to have been a daughter, but again of which woman is not clear. For onomastic reasons, Richard's three daughters Maude, Ellen, and Dorothy are all likely to have been Alice's daughters. Concerning Maude, in particular, there is absolutely no doubt, as both of the two early 17th century pedigree's show her as Alice's daughter by Richard. Concerning Joan St. John, it is now clear that she died by mid-1514, and it would seem that Richard was looking for a wife who would take care of his children for. Their ages could have been as young as two years of age for the youngest to no more than ten years of age for the oldest. My estimated birth year for Alice is around 1490, making her at the time of her marriage already past suitable marriage age. Richard Cotton would have been born around 1475, thus contemporary with his first wife, but not his second. I will continue to do more research. I have uncovered several leads which once I can examine pdf's of the original documents will allow me to clarify things further. Incidentally, both of Richard's wives have a very interesting ancestry. On Joan's side, her mother Alice Langham had Sir John Hawkwood (a late 14th century English national military hero) as an ancestor. On Alice's side, her great grandmother was the sister of the first earl of Derby and thus the sister-in-law of Margaret Beaufort, the mother of Henry VII by Edmund Tudor, the earl of Richmond.
> Best wishes,
> Hikaru
Thanks for this Hikaru.

On Monday, May 22, 2023 at 8:57:19 PM UTC+9, Colin Piper wrote:
> On Sunday, 14 May 2023 at 15:25:05 UTC+1, Hickory wrote:
> > On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 12:04:35 AM UTC+9, Colin Piper wrote:
> > > In Search of Thomas St John, of Charing Kent. Related names Cotton, Savage, Langham, Arundell
> > > I am trying to find the ancestry of Thomas St John of Charing in Kent, and think that I have made a breakthrough.
> > > This note is as short as possible and if anyone wants more detail on any of the references then please let me know.
> > > I hope that names in bold are direct ancestors.
> > > I consider myself to be descended from the marriage of Richard Cotton (c1480- aft 1534), of Hamstall Ridware (Staffordshire) and Johanna St John (c 1476 -1534), daughter of Thomas St John of Charing, (Kent).
> > > The marriage above is documented on the sides of an Altar Tomb in Hamstall Ridware Church, dedicated to John Cotton (-c1478) and Joanna Fitzherbert of Norbury (c1435-c 1525), and lists brief details of their 15 children.. This Altar Tomb must have been erected in the lifetime of their children as it lists some that died early and who are not documented elsewhere. If anyone wants a copy of the transcriptions on the side of the Altar Tomb then please let me know.
> > > The relevant wording for Richard Cotton is “Richard mar Jahne one of the daughters and heirs to Thomas St John of Charyng in Kent, also to Alis daughter to Gilbert Savage.”
> > > The wording for Richard’s elder brother John Cotton is “John mar Alice, daughter and heir to Richard Langham, of Langham, co Suffolk”
> > > The fact that Alice Langham was married first to Thomas St John, is not covered above, but is clearly shown via the Langham of Langham family tree shown in Muskett’s Suffolk Manorial Families.
> > > At this point, the following extra information is available
> > > • Alice Langham and Thomas St John married in 1473
> > > • There were 4 daughters; Joanna, Bridget (married William Waller), Elizabeth (married John Haward), and NN
> > > • The manors shown for Thomas (Panfield and Hempstead, both in Essex) were those of his wife Alice, so she must have had some wealth. No mention of Charing in Kent, so assume that Thomas did not then have a connection with Charing.
> > > • Thomas died around 1478/9 ( 4 daughters after 1473 v Alice marriage to John in 1481)
> > > • Alice subsequently married John Cotton in 1481. John was born c 1460, Alice probably c1455, and a new family of Cottons arose in Panfield
> > > • Richard Cotton was the youngest surviving brother of John Cotton, and married Joanna the daughter of Alice Langham and Thomas St John
> > > A great deal of personal research about St John families in Charing, Kent turned up absolutely nothing about Thomas and very little about the St John family. This includes;
> > > • Edward Hasted’s History and Topographicial Survey of the County of Kent, Vol 7(1798) describes “…..Burleigh or Burley Manor,( Charing) came into the possession of the St Johns who bore for their arms Argent, a mullet sable on a chief gules, three mullets pierced of the first. At length Avis daughter of William St John of Charing carried it in marriage to Humphry Barrey esq who afterwards dwelt here, and was from hence styled Barrey, of Charing. But it does not seem to have remained long in this name, for it soon afterwards came into the possession of a family, called Dallingridge, of eminent note in Hampshire, whose arms were Argent, a cross engailed, gules; and Sir Edward Dallingridge by fine levied in the first year of King Richard II (1377), passed it away to Roger Dallingridge and Alice his wife, and they not long afterwards conveyed it by sale to Thomas Brockhull of Calehill….”. Few dates and vague. But see later on
> > > • Edward St John of Barlavington (who was also the Edward St John of Kent covered later on) is shown as a debtor on 21/10/1390 with a debt proven against William Best, the elder, of Charing in Kent
> > > • A Canterbury Will existed for an Edward St John of Charing in 1457. In latin OK, but the script was hard for me to read. But see later on.
> > > In the course of this research I learned a lot about the various St John lines. This is not the place or space to describe how the various lines fit in with each other, and how so many Johns, Edwards, Olivers, and Alexanders with similar dates have resulted in so many inconsistent family trees, even the professionally family trees!
> > > This research proved useful in helping my wife’s research her own St John ancestors, where the most recent example was the Barbara St John of Bletso who married Thomas William Coventry, the 6th Earl of Coventry.
> > > During 2015 a long discussion evolved in Soc Gen Med about the five Sir Edward St Johns who were alive at the same time during the 1300’s and included the mention of a Sir Edward St John, “of Kent” died before 1398, who married Alice (died 1422) the widow of Roger Dallingridge. Alice was said to own many manors in Kent. My research showed that Burleigh Manor, Charing was one of those and transferred to Roger and Alice Dallingridge in 1377. Roger Dallingridge died in 1380, and Alice subsequently married Sir Edward St John. I am taking Edward Hasted’s words “not long afterwards” meaning as before Roger Dallingridge’s death, so the manor of Burleigh almost made it back to the St Johns before being sold off again. But Edward St John did have dealings in Charing as judged by the debitor note above.
> > > If “my” Thomas St John of Charing had any connection with Burleigh Manor (even if he did not own it) there is some circumstantial evidence that Thomas was somehow descended from the marriage of Sir Edward St John of Kent and Alice. But I just needed to find the descent to Thomas.
> > > Alas, I have not found this link. Edward St John (-1398) and Alice had a son William (-1437) who had a son John, who had a daughter Elizabeth, so no obvious way through to the dates for Thomas St John. If anyone has better information than this, then please let me know.
> > > It seemed a brick wall.
> > > Amongst the Canterbury Wills was one for Edward St John of Charing in Kent who died in 1457 (probate date 22/12/1457) and who just might have been Thomas’s father. This Will was in latin and was translated for me by an expert at Devon Heritage Centre in Exeter.
> > > Edward St John of Charing (-1457) proved also to be Edward St John of East Luccombe and Selworthy (-1457), both on the Devon/Somerset border! Edward’s will makes various gifts to the churches in these villages, leaves a house to his servant, and leaves the estate to his eldest son William. If you want a copy of the will then please let me know.
> > > I was not expecting this, so research took off in a new direction.
> > > The St Johns of East Luccombe are described in ;
> > > • Wikipedia (very briefly)
> > > • Geni (very patchy)
> > > • The Parish of Selworthy in the county of Somerset, by Frederick Hancock (vicar)
> > > • St John of Bletsoe by John Brownbill (1931)
> > > • St John Genealogy Project (which includes a large number of original sources)
> > > • Stirnet and Complete Peerage cover the St Johns of Fonmon and Lageham. Luccombe is not specifically mentioned, but some of the names mentioned may also be from Instow and Luccombe.
> > > Lots of words and at least two printed family trees of the St John family of Luccombe, which unfortunately differ.
> > > There is a Thomas St John in one of the family trees, who was born in 1430 with sp written beside the name. SP means Sine Prole means no children? Not Sans Pareil! Thomas must have been c 43 when he married Alice Langham, so there is scope for an earlier marriage without children, or a very late marriage. It all depends on what information was available when the family tree was put together, in a situation where his two siblings were much higher profile. Thomas’s parents were Edward St John (18/2/1395 -1457) and Joan le Jewe (c 1400-) daughter of William and Alice le Jewe.
> > > The case for Thomas depends on;
> > > • Dates are right
> > > • “Of Charing” is shared with Edward St John, who is shown as his father in the family tree
> > > • he had a mother called Joan(ne), a sister called Joan(na) and a daughter called Joan(na).
> > > • Reference to Thomas (and Joanna) in the provision made by Edward St John
> > > Just need to understand the sp. Perhaps it was sp at the point when William dies in 1473.
> > > Edward and Joan had children as follows;
> > > • William St John, (c1420 – 20/9/1473) married Alice. Before leaving his property to William, Edward had made provision for his two younger children Joanna and Thomas
> > > • Joanna St John (c 1425-5/6/1482) married Nicholas de Arundell of Trerice in Cornwall and received William’s property on the death of William’s widow Alice. East Luccombe and Selworthy were held by the Arundell family for hundreds of years until being passed by marriage to the Wentworth family (1768) and then the Acland family (1802) of Holnicot and Killerton. Selworthy and East Luccombe are now owned by the National Trust, following Sir Richard Acland’s gift in 1944.
> > > • Thomas St John (c1430-) sp. See above
> > > I have not yet found the document detailing the provision made by Edward for Thomas and it very possible that it was the property owned by Edward in Charing and where he died in 1457. It may just be coincidence that Burleigh Manor was also situated in Charing?
> > > Edward’s father was Henry St John (c 1336- 24/9/1406), who married Isabelle with children as follows;
> > > • Edward St John, (18/2/1395 – 1457) who married Joan Jewe (c 1400) daughter of William and Alice Jewe. Edward has left a will, filed under Edward St John of Charing. Edward had perfectly good properties in East Luccombe/Selworthy, so why is he titled “of Charing” for the purpose of his will?
> > > Henry St John was the youngest son of Alexander St John and Margaret Arundell who was one of the Cornish family, and not a family member from the FitzAlan earls of Arundel.
> > > • Sir Oliver St John (c1320-1373) who married Elizabeth Luccombe, had son John who married another Elizabeth and died abroad, without legitimate offspring. Other family trees give Oliver a second wife after Elizabeth’s death and a line that leads to the St John’s of Bletso. See below
> > > • John St John c1322-bef 1380
> > > • Alexandra St John c1324 -1375
> > > • Theobald St John c 1330- bef 1380
> > > • Henry St John c 1336 – 24/9/1406. IPM writ 10/10/1406 Exeter
> > > After Alexander’s (aft 1351) and Oliver’s (8/1373) death, and the death of Oliver’s son John abroad in his father’s lifetime, Henry had outlived all of his siblings and took possession of the manors of East Luccombe and Selworthy. John’s widow Elizabeth tried to dispute this but without success; Henry remained in possession. Henry also held Stockleigh Luccombe in socage of the heirs of William Baggeputz by the service of one pair of white spurs.
> > > The detail here comes from membrane 13 Nov 2 1339, Kennington;
> > > • Licence for Alexander de Sancto Johanne and Elizabeth (widow of Hugh Luccombe) his wife and Oliver De Sancto Johanne and Elizabeth (Luccombe) his wife to Enfeoff Richard de Morcastre, parson of the church of Luccombe, of the manor of East Luccombe co Somerset, and the advowsons of the churches of Luccombe and Selworthy, held in chief as of the honour of Pynkeneye, and for him to re-grant the same to the said Alexander and Elizabeth his wife for life, with successive remainders in tail to Oliver and Elizabeth his wife, to John, Theobald and Henry, sons of the said Alexander, and reversion to the right heirs of the said John.
> > > The Honour of Pinkney was owned by Hugh de Luccombe
> > > Several sources suggest that the St Johns of Instow and Luccombe are the same as the St Johns of Fonmon/Faumont in Glamorgan. So I tried to make the data above fit what is known about the Fonmon St Johns.
> > > Elizabeth Luccombe was born on 5 May 1320, as this date was attested before she married Oliver St John so there is one fixed date. The birth date of 1346 for Oliver suggested by several web sites seems far too late, allowing little time for Elizabeth Luccombe’s early death, a second marriage to Elizabeth Delabere and a son, another John who presented as an adult to Instow church in 1379 and 1387. One source even suggests a birthdate for the younger John of 1383 ie after Oliver’s death!
> > > The 1346 birth date for Oliver seems to cause an extra generation to be added, allowing a Sir John St John who married Elizabeth Paveley, before the Alexander St John who married Elizabeth Umfreville, except that Alexander was called John who seems to have the same dates and wife as Alexander! Brownbill suggested that it was Collins who suggested the name of John, and this has been widely copied.
> > > What is needed is a definitive family tree for the St Johns of Fonmon.. Help!
> > > Then I noticed that the St Johns Genealogy web site suggests Alexander as the son of Sir John St John of Lageham, 1st baron, so I have extended Alexander’s family to reflect this option.
> > > .
> > > *********************************************************************
> > > Alexander St John, of Instow and East Luccombe, c1286- aft 1351. Born Stanton St John, Oxon. Died in Instow, Devon. Alexander married first Margaret Arundell (mother of the children), and then Elizabeth widow of Hugh Luccombe (-1323), whose daughter and heiress Elizabeth (1320-) married Alexander’s eldest son Sir Oliver (1320-1373).
> > > The St John Project web site claims that Alexander was the youngest son of Sir John de St John, first baron St John of Lageham (c1255 – bef 7/1316). Although called baron of Lageham, in Surrey, they lived in Stanton St John, Oxfordshire. A major extra landholding in Swallowfield came by Roger St John’s (John’s father) marriage to a Despenser heir.
> > > Many primary records are included within the St John Project web site and I have been very selective in including the following. These records have to tie a specific St John to a specific area.
> > > One outstanding query relates to the wife shown for the first baron shown as Beatrix Broye, who I thought was married to a John de St John (c 1267 -aft 1346) of the Fonmon/Faumont line. Stirnet shows the wife of the first baron as Margaret, and Geni as Maud FitzNigel.
> > > There are two references confirming that John de St John of Lageham held Instow (near Barnstaple, Devon)
> > > 1296 held the fee of Instow. J Brownbill art cit 356 Cardiff Records Vol 1 (Cardiff 1898) 264
> > > 1316 held the fee of Instow. Inquisitions and Assessments related to Feudal Aids 1284-1431 Vol (London 1899), 372, 375
> > > Children as follows;
> > > • John de St John, 2nd baron. C1276 (Lageham) died 16/6/1332
> > > • William de St John. (c1278 – c 1353)
> > > • Nicholas of Glympton, (c 1279 -1362)
> > > • Thomas St John. (c1280 – c 1360) Died in Lageham
> > > • Henry St John (c 1283- 1309). Cleric of Doddicombsleigh, Devon
> > > • Laurence St John, ( c1284 -aft 1308) Hellestone, Devon
> > > • Edward St John (c 1285- aft 1312) Tawstock, Devon
> > > • Alexander St John (c 1286 -aft 1351), born Stanton St John. Templar?, died Instow
> > > Alexander St John references
> > > • 1307. Alexander son of John of Staunton (Stanton?) to grant land in Eversholt to the Abbot and convent of Woburn, Beds .
> > > • 1316 Inherited Instow from his father?
> > > • 1318 The Register of Bishop Grandisson (Instow). Alexander de Sancto Johanne presents to Instow
> > > • 1333 Tawstock (near Barnstaple)“Alexander de Sancto Johanne, Knight Templar. Most curious of all, just outside Barnstaple lies a chapel of St John, very near to the interestingly named village of Templeton, the parish records of which list one Alexander de Sancto Johanne as being a regular attendee at the chapel and describes him as a Knight Templar, which is odd because the records are dated 1333, 20 years after the Templars were supposed to have been forced to leave the order or be imprisoned”.
> > > • 2/11/1339 Alexander St John was granted East Luccombe on his marriage to Elizabeth Luccombe, and his son Oliver’s marriage to her daughter.
> > > • 1351 The register of Bishop Grandisson (for Instow). This is far later than the dates for the John/Alexander St John of Fonmon.
> > >
> > > All feedback welcome!
> > >
> > > Colin Piper
> > Dear Mr Piper,
> > Thanks to a pdf of the original UK National Archive complaint by Richard Cotton, the husband of Joan St. John and of Alice Savage, against a certain Alice Eyton for not returning presents he had given her as a quid pro quo for a promise of marriage, I am in a position to give approximates of Richard's two marriages. The dating on the back side of the document would indicate that the complaint was in London sometime in November 1514, a date consistent with other datable documents having their origin in the same bundle of chancery cases dealt with by Archbishop Warham of Canterbury. Richard's son Nicholas can be dated as having been born no later than 1512 but more probably at a date of around 1507 is more likely. Richard has at least one son named Humphrey for whom a birth year of no later than 1506 can inferred. Richard's son John is sometimes mentioned as the oldest son but due to the very late dates his children were born is unlikely to have been born much before 1505. There is another presumed son Francis mentioned in a church census of around 1532. In the same census, Humphrey Cotton is mentioned for Hampstall Ridware twice, once as a child of Richard and once as an independent householder. It is generally assumed that these are the same individual, but Burton's family tree dating to the early 17th century shows two, an older Humphrey (Joan St. John's son) who is given no wife and a younger one (Alice Savage's) who is. Various land dealings involving Richard and Humphrey make it likely that the older Humphrey was the only Humphrey, but still do not make it impossible that a younger one existed, too. If the younger one did exist, though, the before-mentioned land dealings make it virtually impossible for him to have been born later than the very beginning of 1516.. On the balance, it would seem to me that Richard Cotton and Joan St. John were both approaching 30 when they married and seem to have had at least three sons in relatively quick order. Francis (spelled Frances, but not necessarily indicating a female in the early 16th century) I think is just as likely to have been a son of Joan St. John as of Alice Savage. The reason for thinking that this is a male rather than a female is because of male Francis Cottons appearing in the same part of Staffordshire later in the 16th century for whom DNA testing of possible descendants would indicate a common descent with Humphrey and John's descendants. Nevertheless, it is not impossible for Frances to have been a daughter, but again of which woman is not clear. For onomastic reasons, Richard's three daughters Maude, Ellen, and Dorothy are all likely to have been Alice's daughters. Concerning Maude, in particular, there is absolutely no doubt, as both of the two early 17th century pedigree's show her as Alice's daughter by Richard. Concerning Joan St. John, it is now clear that she died by mid-1514, and it would seem that Richard was looking for a wife who would take care of his children for. Their ages could have been as young as two years of age for the youngest to no more than ten years of age for the oldest. My estimated birth year for Alice is around 1490, making her at the time of her marriage already past suitable marriage age. Richard Cotton would have been born around 1475, thus contemporary with his first wife, but not his second. I will continue to do more research. I have uncovered several leads which once I can examine pdf's of the original documents will allow me to clarify things further. Incidentally, both of Richard's wives have a very interesting ancestry. On Joan's side, her mother Alice Langham had Sir John Hawkwood (a late 14th century English national military hero) as an ancestor. On Alice's side, her great grandmother was the sister of the first earl of Derby and thus the sister-in-law of Margaret Beaufort, the mother of Henry VII by Edmund Tudor, the earl of Richmond.
> > Best wishes,
> > Hikaru
> Thanks for this Hikaru.
>
> Please keep up the good work with more PDF's! You seem to have a rare skill of replacing guesses with real dates.
>
> I am aware of the John Savage marriage to Katherine Stanley, and what happened to both families after 1485.
>
> What I have not found yet is a son Gilbert of this marriage, a Gilbert who married ?? and was the father of Alice Savage who married Richard Cotton. Also so many children have been credited to John and Katherine, that I am seeking a definitive list of these children. What would you advise here?
>
> Again thank you
>
> Colin

On Monday, May 22, 2023 at 8:57:19 PM UTC+9, Colin Piper wrote:
> On Sunday, 14 May 2023 at 15:25:05 UTC+1, Hickory wrote:
> > On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 12:04:35 AM UTC+9, Colin Piper wrote:
> > > In Search of Thomas St John, of Charing Kent. Related names Cotton, Savage, Langham, Arundell
> > > I am trying to find the ancestry of Thomas St John of Charing in Kent, and think that I have made a breakthrough.
> > > This note is as short as possible and if anyone wants more detail on any of the references then please let me know.
> > > I hope that names in bold are direct ancestors.
> > > I consider myself to be descended from the marriage of Richard Cotton (c1480- aft 1534), of Hamstall Ridware (Staffordshire) and Johanna St John (c 1476 -1534), daughter of Thomas St John of Charing, (Kent).
> > > The marriage above is documented on the sides of an Altar Tomb in Hamstall Ridware Church, dedicated to John Cotton (-c1478) and Joanna Fitzherbert of Norbury (c1435-c 1525), and lists brief details of their 15 children.. This Altar Tomb must have been erected in the lifetime of their children as it lists some that died early and who are not documented elsewhere. If anyone wants a copy of the transcriptions on the side of the Altar Tomb then please let me know.
> > > The relevant wording for Richard Cotton is “Richard mar Jahne one of the daughters and heirs to Thomas St John of Charyng in Kent, also to Alis daughter to Gilbert Savage.”
> > > The wording for Richard’s elder brother John Cotton is “John mar Alice, daughter and heir to Richard Langham, of Langham, co Suffolk”
> > > The fact that Alice Langham was married first to Thomas St John, is not covered above, but is clearly shown via the Langham of Langham family tree shown in Muskett’s Suffolk Manorial Families.
> > > At this point, the following extra information is available
> > > • Alice Langham and Thomas St John married in 1473
> > > • There were 4 daughters; Joanna, Bridget (married William Waller), Elizabeth (married John Haward), and NN
> > > • The manors shown for Thomas (Panfield and Hempstead, both in Essex) were those of his wife Alice, so she must have had some wealth. No mention of Charing in Kent, so assume that Thomas did not then have a connection with Charing.
> > > • Thomas died around 1478/9 ( 4 daughters after 1473 v Alice marriage to John in 1481)
> > > • Alice subsequently married John Cotton in 1481. John was born c 1460, Alice probably c1455, and a new family of Cottons arose in Panfield
> > > • Richard Cotton was the youngest surviving brother of John Cotton, and married Joanna the daughter of Alice Langham and Thomas St John
> > > A great deal of personal research about St John families in Charing, Kent turned up absolutely nothing about Thomas and very little about the St John family. This includes;
> > > • Edward Hasted’s History and Topographicial Survey of the County of Kent, Vol 7(1798) describes “…..Burleigh or Burley Manor,( Charing) came into the possession of the St Johns who bore for their arms Argent, a mullet sable on a chief gules, three mullets pierced of the first. At length Avis daughter of William St John of Charing carried it in marriage to Humphry Barrey esq who afterwards dwelt here, and was from hence styled Barrey, of Charing. But it does not seem to have remained long in this name, for it soon afterwards came into the possession of a family, called Dallingridge, of eminent note in Hampshire, whose arms were Argent, a cross engailed, gules; and Sir Edward Dallingridge by fine levied in the first year of King Richard II (1377), passed it away to Roger Dallingridge and Alice his wife, and they not long afterwards conveyed it by sale to Thomas Brockhull of Calehill….”. Few dates and vague. But see later on
> > > • Edward St John of Barlavington (who was also the Edward St John of Kent covered later on) is shown as a debtor on 21/10/1390 with a debt proven against William Best, the elder, of Charing in Kent
> > > • A Canterbury Will existed for an Edward St John of Charing in 1457. In latin OK, but the script was hard for me to read. But see later on.
> > > In the course of this research I learned a lot about the various St John lines. This is not the place or space to describe how the various lines fit in with each other, and how so many Johns, Edwards, Olivers, and Alexanders with similar dates have resulted in so many inconsistent family trees, even the professionally family trees!
> > > This research proved useful in helping my wife’s research her own St John ancestors, where the most recent example was the Barbara St John of Bletso who married Thomas William Coventry, the 6th Earl of Coventry.
> > > During 2015 a long discussion evolved in Soc Gen Med about the five Sir Edward St Johns who were alive at the same time during the 1300’s and included the mention of a Sir Edward St John, “of Kent” died before 1398, who married Alice (died 1422) the widow of Roger Dallingridge. Alice was said to own many manors in Kent. My research showed that Burleigh Manor, Charing was one of those and transferred to Roger and Alice Dallingridge in 1377. Roger Dallingridge died in 1380, and Alice subsequently married Sir Edward St John. I am taking Edward Hasted’s words “not long afterwards” meaning as before Roger Dallingridge’s death, so the manor of Burleigh almost made it back to the St Johns before being sold off again. But Edward St John did have dealings in Charing as judged by the debitor note above.
> > > If “my” Thomas St John of Charing had any connection with Burleigh Manor (even if he did not own it) there is some circumstantial evidence that Thomas was somehow descended from the marriage of Sir Edward St John of Kent and Alice. But I just needed to find the descent to Thomas.
> > > Alas, I have not found this link. Edward St John (-1398) and Alice had a son William (-1437) who had a son John, who had a daughter Elizabeth, so no obvious way through to the dates for Thomas St John. If anyone has better information than this, then please let me know.
> > > It seemed a brick wall.
> > > Amongst the Canterbury Wills was one for Edward St John of Charing in Kent who died in 1457 (probate date 22/12/1457) and who just might have been Thomas’s father. This Will was in latin and was translated for me by an expert at Devon Heritage Centre in Exeter.
> > > Edward St John of Charing (-1457) proved also to be Edward St John of East Luccombe and Selworthy (-1457), both on the Devon/Somerset border! Edward’s will makes various gifts to the churches in these villages, leaves a house to his servant, and leaves the estate to his eldest son William. If you want a copy of the will then please let me know.
> > > I was not expecting this, so research took off in a new direction.
> > > The St Johns of East Luccombe are described in ;
> > > • Wikipedia (very briefly)
> > > • Geni (very patchy)
> > > • The Parish of Selworthy in the county of Somerset, by Frederick Hancock (vicar)
> > > • St John of Bletsoe by John Brownbill (1931)
> > > • St John Genealogy Project (which includes a large number of original sources)
> > > • Stirnet and Complete Peerage cover the St Johns of Fonmon and Lageham. Luccombe is not specifically mentioned, but some of the names mentioned may also be from Instow and Luccombe.
> > > Lots of words and at least two printed family trees of the St John family of Luccombe, which unfortunately differ.
> > > There is a Thomas St John in one of the family trees, who was born in 1430 with sp written beside the name. SP means Sine Prole means no children? Not Sans Pareil! Thomas must have been c 43 when he married Alice Langham, so there is scope for an earlier marriage without children, or a very late marriage. It all depends on what information was available when the family tree was put together, in a situation where his two siblings were much higher profile. Thomas’s parents were Edward St John (18/2/1395 -1457) and Joan le Jewe (c 1400-) daughter of William and Alice le Jewe.
> > > The case for Thomas depends on;
> > > • Dates are right
> > > • “Of Charing” is shared with Edward St John, who is shown as his father in the family tree
> > > • he had a mother called Joan(ne), a sister called Joan(na) and a daughter called Joan(na).
> > > • Reference to Thomas (and Joanna) in the provision made by Edward St John
> > > Just need to understand the sp. Perhaps it was sp at the point when William dies in 1473.
> > > Edward and Joan had children as follows;
> > > • William St John, (c1420 – 20/9/1473) married Alice. Before leaving his property to William, Edward had made provision for his two younger children Joanna and Thomas
> > > • Joanna St John (c 1425-5/6/1482) married Nicholas de Arundell of Trerice in Cornwall and received William’s property on the death of William’s widow Alice. East Luccombe and Selworthy were held by the Arundell family for hundreds of years until being passed by marriage to the Wentworth family (1768) and then the Acland family (1802) of Holnicot and Killerton. Selworthy and East Luccombe are now owned by the National Trust, following Sir Richard Acland’s gift in 1944.
> > > • Thomas St John (c1430-) sp. See above
> > > I have not yet found the document detailing the provision made by Edward for Thomas and it very possible that it was the property owned by Edward in Charing and where he died in 1457. It may just be coincidence that Burleigh Manor was also situated in Charing?
> > > Edward’s father was Henry St John (c 1336- 24/9/1406), who married Isabelle with children as follows;
> > > • Edward St John, (18/2/1395 – 1457) who married Joan Jewe (c 1400) daughter of William and Alice Jewe. Edward has left a will, filed under Edward St John of Charing. Edward had perfectly good properties in East Luccombe/Selworthy, so why is he titled “of Charing” for the purpose of his will?
> > > Henry St John was the youngest son of Alexander St John and Margaret Arundell who was one of the Cornish family, and not a family member from the FitzAlan earls of Arundel.
> > > • Sir Oliver St John (c1320-1373) who married Elizabeth Luccombe, had son John who married another Elizabeth and died abroad, without legitimate offspring. Other family trees give Oliver a second wife after Elizabeth’s death and a line that leads to the St John’s of Bletso. See below
> > > • John St John c1322-bef 1380
> > > • Alexandra St John c1324 -1375
> > > • Theobald St John c 1330- bef 1380
> > > • Henry St John c 1336 – 24/9/1406. IPM writ 10/10/1406 Exeter
> > > After Alexander’s (aft 1351) and Oliver’s (8/1373) death, and the death of Oliver’s son John abroad in his father’s lifetime, Henry had outlived all of his siblings and took possession of the manors of East Luccombe and Selworthy. John’s widow Elizabeth tried to dispute this but without success; Henry remained in possession. Henry also held Stockleigh Luccombe in socage of the heirs of William Baggeputz by the service of one pair of white spurs.
> > > The detail here comes from membrane 13 Nov 2 1339, Kennington;
> > > • Licence for Alexander de Sancto Johanne and Elizabeth (widow of Hugh Luccombe) his wife and Oliver De Sancto Johanne and Elizabeth (Luccombe) his wife to Enfeoff Richard de Morcastre, parson of the church of Luccombe, of the manor of East Luccombe co Somerset, and the advowsons of the churches of Luccombe and Selworthy, held in chief as of the honour of Pynkeneye, and for him to re-grant the same to the said Alexander and Elizabeth his wife for life, with successive remainders in tail to Oliver and Elizabeth his wife, to John, Theobald and Henry, sons of the said Alexander, and reversion to the right heirs of the said John.
> > > The Honour of Pinkney was owned by Hugh de Luccombe
> > > Several sources suggest that the St Johns of Instow and Luccombe are the same as the St Johns of Fonmon/Faumont in Glamorgan. So I tried to make the data above fit what is known about the Fonmon St Johns.
> > > Elizabeth Luccombe was born on 5 May 1320, as this date was attested before she married Oliver St John so there is one fixed date. The birth date of 1346 for Oliver suggested by several web sites seems far too late, allowing little time for Elizabeth Luccombe’s early death, a second marriage to Elizabeth Delabere and a son, another John who presented as an adult to Instow church in 1379 and 1387. One source even suggests a birthdate for the younger John of 1383 ie after Oliver’s death!
> > > The 1346 birth date for Oliver seems to cause an extra generation to be added, allowing a Sir John St John who married Elizabeth Paveley, before the Alexander St John who married Elizabeth Umfreville, except that Alexander was called John who seems to have the same dates and wife as Alexander! Brownbill suggested that it was Collins who suggested the name of John, and this has been widely copied.
> > > What is needed is a definitive family tree for the St Johns of Fonmon.. Help!
> > > Then I noticed that the St Johns Genealogy web site suggests Alexander as the son of Sir John St John of Lageham, 1st baron, so I have extended Alexander’s family to reflect this option.
> > > .
> > > *********************************************************************
> > > Alexander St John, of Instow and East Luccombe, c1286- aft 1351. Born Stanton St John, Oxon. Died in Instow, Devon. Alexander married first Margaret Arundell (mother of the children), and then Elizabeth widow of Hugh Luccombe (-1323), whose daughter and heiress Elizabeth (1320-) married Alexander’s eldest son Sir Oliver (1320-1373).
> > > The St John Project web site claims that Alexander was the youngest son of Sir John de St John, first baron St John of Lageham (c1255 – bef 7/1316). Although called baron of Lageham, in Surrey, they lived in Stanton St John, Oxfordshire. A major extra landholding in Swallowfield came by Roger St John’s (John’s father) marriage to a Despenser heir.
> > > Many primary records are included within the St John Project web site and I have been very selective in including the following. These records have to tie a specific St John to a specific area.
> > > One outstanding query relates to the wife shown for the first baron shown as Beatrix Broye, who I thought was married to a John de St John (c 1267 -aft 1346) of the Fonmon/Faumont line. Stirnet shows the wife of the first baron as Margaret, and Geni as Maud FitzNigel.
> > > There are two references confirming that John de St John of Lageham held Instow (near Barnstaple, Devon)
> > > 1296 held the fee of Instow. J Brownbill art cit 356 Cardiff Records Vol 1 (Cardiff 1898) 264
> > > 1316 held the fee of Instow. Inquisitions and Assessments related to Feudal Aids 1284-1431 Vol (London 1899), 372, 375
> > > Children as follows;
> > > • John de St John, 2nd baron. C1276 (Lageham) died 16/6/1332
> > > • William de St John. (c1278 – c 1353)
> > > • Nicholas of Glympton, (c 1279 -1362)
> > > • Thomas St John. (c1280 – c 1360) Died in Lageham
> > > • Henry St John (c 1283- 1309). Cleric of Doddicombsleigh, Devon
> > > • Laurence St John, ( c1284 -aft 1308) Hellestone, Devon
> > > • Edward St John (c 1285- aft 1312) Tawstock, Devon
> > > • Alexander St John (c 1286 -aft 1351), born Stanton St John. Templar?, died Instow
> > > Alexander St John references
> > > • 1307. Alexander son of John of Staunton (Stanton?) to grant land in Eversholt to the Abbot and convent of Woburn, Beds .
> > > • 1316 Inherited Instow from his father?
> > > • 1318 The Register of Bishop Grandisson (Instow). Alexander de Sancto Johanne presents to Instow
> > > • 1333 Tawstock (near Barnstaple)“Alexander de Sancto Johanne, Knight Templar. Most curious of all, just outside Barnstaple lies a chapel of St John, very near to the interestingly named village of Templeton, the parish records of which list one Alexander de Sancto Johanne as being a regular attendee at the chapel and describes him as a Knight Templar, which is odd because the records are dated 1333, 20 years after the Templars were supposed to have been forced to leave the order or be imprisoned”.
> > > • 2/11/1339 Alexander St John was granted East Luccombe on his marriage to Elizabeth Luccombe, and his son Oliver’s marriage to her daughter.
> > > • 1351 The register of Bishop Grandisson (for Instow). This is far later than the dates for the John/Alexander St John of Fonmon.
> > >
> > > All feedback welcome!
> > >
> > > Colin Piper
> > Dear Mr Piper,
> > Thanks to a pdf of the original UK National Archive complaint by Richard Cotton, the husband of Joan St. John and of Alice Savage, against a certain Alice Eyton for not returning presents he had given her as a quid pro quo for a promise of marriage, I am in a position to give approximates of Richard's two marriages. The dating on the back side of the document would indicate that the complaint was in London sometime in November 1514, a date consistent with other datable documents having their origin in the same bundle of chancery cases dealt with by Archbishop Warham of Canterbury. Richard's son Nicholas can be dated as having been born no later than 1512 but more probably at a date of around 1507 is more likely. Richard has at least one son named Humphrey for whom a birth year of no later than 1506 can inferred. Richard's son John is sometimes mentioned as the oldest son but due to the very late dates his children were born is unlikely to have been born much before 1505. There is another presumed son Francis mentioned in a church census of around 1532. In the same census, Humphrey Cotton is mentioned for Hampstall Ridware twice, once as a child of Richard and once as an independent householder. It is generally assumed that these are the same individual, but Burton's family tree dating to the early 17th century shows two, an older Humphrey (Joan St. John's son) who is given no wife and a younger one (Alice Savage's) who is. Various land dealings involving Richard and Humphrey make it likely that the older Humphrey was the only Humphrey, but still do not make it impossible that a younger one existed, too. If the younger one did exist, though, the before-mentioned land dealings make it virtually impossible for him to have been born later than the very beginning of 1516.. On the balance, it would seem to me that Richard Cotton and Joan St. John were both approaching 30 when they married and seem to have had at least three sons in relatively quick order. Francis (spelled Frances, but not necessarily indicating a female in the early 16th century) I think is just as likely to have been a son of Joan St. John as of Alice Savage. The reason for thinking that this is a male rather than a female is because of male Francis Cottons appearing in the same part of Staffordshire later in the 16th century for whom DNA testing of possible descendants would indicate a common descent with Humphrey and John's descendants. Nevertheless, it is not impossible for Frances to have been a daughter, but again of which woman is not clear. For onomastic reasons, Richard's three daughters Maude, Ellen, and Dorothy are all likely to have been Alice's daughters. Concerning Maude, in particular, there is absolutely no doubt, as both of the two early 17th century pedigree's show her as Alice's daughter by Richard. Concerning Joan St. John, it is now clear that she died by mid-1514, and it would seem that Richard was looking for a wife who would take care of his children for. Their ages could have been as young as two years of age for the youngest to no more than ten years of age for the oldest. My estimated birth year for Alice is around 1490, making her at the time of her marriage already past suitable marriage age. Richard Cotton would have been born around 1475, thus contemporary with his first wife, but not his second. I will continue to do more research. I have uncovered several leads which once I can examine pdf's of the original documents will allow me to clarify things further. Incidentally, both of Richard's wives have a very interesting ancestry. On Joan's side, her mother Alice Langham had Sir John Hawkwood (a late 14th century English national military hero) as an ancestor. On Alice's side, her great grandmother was the sister of the first earl of Derby and thus the sister-in-law of Margaret Beaufort, the mother of Henry VII by Edmund Tudor, the earl of Richmond.
> > Best wishes,
> > Hikaru
> Thanks for this Hikaru.
>
> Please keep up the good work with more PDF's! You seem to have a rare skill of replacing guesses with real dates.
>
> I am aware of the John Savage marriage to Katherine Stanley, and what happened to both families after 1485.
>
> What I have not found yet is a son Gilbert of this marriage, a Gilbert who married ?? and was the father of Alice Savage who married Richard Cotton. Also so many children have been credited to John and Katherine, that I am seeking a definitive list of these children. What would you advise here?
>
> Again thank you
>
> Colin
Dear Colin,

On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 12:04:35 AM UTC+9, Colin Piper wrote:
> In Search of Thomas St John, of Charing Kent. Related names Cotton, Savage, Langham, Arundell
> I am trying to find the ancestry of Thomas St John of Charing in Kent, and think that I have made a breakthrough.
> This note is as short as possible and if anyone wants more detail on any of the references then please let me know.
> I hope that names in bold are direct ancestors.
> I consider myself to be descended from the marriage of Richard Cotton (c1480- aft 1534), of Hamstall Ridware (Staffordshire) and Johanna St John (c 1476 -1534), daughter of Thomas St John of Charing, (Kent).
> The marriage above is documented on the sides of an Altar Tomb in Hamstall Ridware Church, dedicated to John Cotton (-c1478) and Joanna Fitzherbert of Norbury (c1435-c 1525), and lists brief details of their 15 children. This Altar Tomb must have been erected in the lifetime of their children as it lists some that died early and who are not documented elsewhere. If anyone wants a copy of the transcriptions on the side of the Altar Tomb then please let me know.
> The relevant wording for Richard Cotton is “Richard mar Jahne one of the daughters and heirs to Thomas St John of Charyng in Kent, also to Alis daughter to Gilbert Savage.”
> The wording for Richard’s elder brother John Cotton is “John mar Alice, daughter and heir to Richard Langham, of Langham, co Suffolk”
> The fact that Alice Langham was married first to Thomas St John, is not covered above, but is clearly shown via the Langham of Langham family tree shown in Muskett’s Suffolk Manorial Families.
> At this point, the following extra information is available
> • Alice Langham and Thomas St John married in 1473
> • There were 4 daughters; Joanna, Bridget (married William Waller), Elizabeth (married John Haward), and NN
> • The manors shown for Thomas (Panfield and Hempstead, both in Essex) were those of his wife Alice, so she must have had some wealth. No mention of Charing in Kent, so assume that Thomas did not then have a connection with Charing.
> • Thomas died around 1478/9 ( 4 daughters after 1473 v Alice marriage to John in 1481)
> • Alice subsequently married John Cotton in 1481. John was born c 1460, Alice probably c1455, and a new family of Cottons arose in Panfield
> • Richard Cotton was the youngest surviving brother of John Cotton, and married Joanna the daughter of Alice Langham and Thomas St John
> A great deal of personal research about St John families in Charing, Kent turned up absolutely nothing about Thomas and very little about the St John family. This includes;
> • Edward Hasted’s History and Topographicial Survey of the County of Kent, Vol 7(1798) describes “…..Burleigh or Burley Manor,( Charing) came into the possession of the St Johns who bore for their arms Argent, a mullet sable on a chief gules, three mullets pierced of the first. At length Avis daughter of William St John of Charing carried it in marriage to Humphry Barrey esq who afterwards dwelt here, and was from hence styled Barrey, of Charing. But it does not seem to have remained long in this name, for it soon afterwards came into the possession of a family, called Dallingridge, of eminent note in Hampshire, whose arms were Argent, a cross engailed, gules; and Sir Edward Dallingridge by fine levied in the first year of King Richard II (1377), passed it away to Roger Dallingridge and Alice his wife, and they not long afterwards conveyed it by sale to Thomas Brockhull of Calehill….”. Few dates and vague. But see later on
> • Edward St John of Barlavington (who was also the Edward St John of Kent covered later on) is shown as a debtor on 21/10/1390 with a debt proven against William Best, the elder, of Charing in Kent
> • A Canterbury Will existed for an Edward St John of Charing in 1457. In latin OK, but the script was hard for me to read. But see later on.
> In the course of this research I learned a lot about the various St John lines. This is not the place or space to describe how the various lines fit in with each other, and how so many Johns, Edwards, Olivers, and Alexanders with similar dates have resulted in so many inconsistent family trees, even the professionally family trees!
> This research proved useful in helping my wife’s research her own St John ancestors, where the most recent example was the Barbara St John of Bletso who married Thomas William Coventry, the 6th Earl of Coventry.
> During 2015 a long discussion evolved in Soc Gen Med about the five Sir Edward St Johns who were alive at the same time during the 1300’s and included the mention of a Sir Edward St John, “of Kent” died before 1398, who married Alice (died 1422) the widow of Roger Dallingridge. Alice was said to own many manors in Kent. My research showed that Burleigh Manor, Charing was one of those and transferred to Roger and Alice Dallingridge in 1377. Roger Dallingridge died in 1380, and Alice subsequently married Sir Edward St John. I am taking Edward Hasted’s words “not long afterwards” meaning as before Roger Dallingridge’s death, so the manor of Burleigh almost made it back to the St Johns before being sold off again. But Edward St John did have dealings in Charing as judged by the debitor note above.
> If “my” Thomas St John of Charing had any connection with Burleigh Manor (even if he did not own it) there is some circumstantial evidence that Thomas was somehow descended from the marriage of Sir Edward St John of Kent and Alice. But I just needed to find the descent to Thomas.
> Alas, I have not found this link. Edward St John (-1398) and Alice had a son William (-1437) who had a son John, who had a daughter Elizabeth, so no obvious way through to the dates for Thomas St John. If anyone has better information than this, then please let me know.
> It seemed a brick wall.
> Amongst the Canterbury Wills was one for Edward St John of Charing in Kent who died in 1457 (probate date 22/12/1457) and who just might have been Thomas’s father. This Will was in latin and was translated for me by an expert at Devon Heritage Centre in Exeter.
> Edward St John of Charing (-1457) proved also to be Edward St John of East Luccombe and Selworthy (-1457), both on the Devon/Somerset border! Edward’s will makes various gifts to the churches in these villages, leaves a house to his servant, and leaves the estate to his eldest son William. If you want a copy of the will then please let me know.
> I was not expecting this, so research took off in a new direction.
> The St Johns of East Luccombe are described in ;
> • Wikipedia (very briefly)
> • Geni (very patchy)
> • The Parish of Selworthy in the county of Somerset, by Frederick Hancock (vicar)
> • St John of Bletsoe by John Brownbill (1931)
> • St John Genealogy Project (which includes a large number of original sources)
> • Stirnet and Complete Peerage cover the St Johns of Fonmon and Lageham. Luccombe is not specifically mentioned, but some of the names mentioned may also be from Instow and Luccombe.
> Lots of words and at least two printed family trees of the St John family of Luccombe, which unfortunately differ.
> There is a Thomas St John in one of the family trees, who was born in 1430 with sp written beside the name. SP means Sine Prole means no children? Not Sans Pareil! Thomas must have been c 43 when he married Alice Langham, so there is scope for an earlier marriage without children, or a very late marriage. It all depends on what information was available when the family tree was put together, in a situation where his two siblings were much higher profile. Thomas’s parents were Edward St John (18/2/1395 -1457) and Joan le Jewe (c 1400-) daughter of William and Alice le Jewe.
> The case for Thomas depends on;
> • Dates are right
> • “Of Charing” is shared with Edward St John, who is shown as his father in the family tree
> • he had a mother called Joan(ne), a sister called Joan(na) and a daughter called Joan(na).
> • Reference to Thomas (and Joanna) in the provision made by Edward St John
> Just need to understand the sp. Perhaps it was sp at the point when William dies in 1473.
> Edward and Joan had children as follows;
> • William St John, (c1420 – 20/9/1473) married Alice. Before leaving his property to William, Edward had made provision for his two younger children Joanna and Thomas
> • Joanna St John (c 1425-5/6/1482) married Nicholas de Arundell of Trerice in Cornwall and received William’s property on the death of William’s widow Alice. East Luccombe and Selworthy were held by the Arundell family for hundreds of years until being passed by marriage to the Wentworth family (1768) and then the Acland family (1802) of Holnicot and Killerton. Selworthy and East Luccombe are now owned by the National Trust, following Sir Richard Acland’s gift in 1944.
> • Thomas St John (c1430-) sp. See above
> I have not yet found the document detailing the provision made by Edward for Thomas and it very possible that it was the property owned by Edward in Charing and where he died in 1457. It may just be coincidence that Burleigh Manor was also situated in Charing?
> Edward’s father was Henry St John (c 1336- 24/9/1406), who married Isabelle with children as follows;
> • Edward St John, (18/2/1395 – 1457) who married Joan Jewe (c 1400) daughter of William and Alice Jewe. Edward has left a will, filed under Edward St John of Charing. Edward had perfectly good properties in East Luccombe/Selworthy, so why is he titled “of Charing” for the purpose of his will?
> Henry St John was the youngest son of Alexander St John and Margaret Arundell who was one of the Cornish family, and not a family member from the FitzAlan earls of Arundel.
> • Sir Oliver St John (c1320-1373) who married Elizabeth Luccombe, had son John who married another Elizabeth and died abroad, without legitimate offspring. Other family trees give Oliver a second wife after Elizabeth’s death and a line that leads to the St John’s of Bletso. See below
> • John St John c1322-bef 1380
> • Alexandra St John c1324 -1375
> • Theobald St John c 1330- bef 1380
> • Henry St John c 1336 – 24/9/1406. IPM writ 10/10/1406 Exeter
> After Alexander’s (aft 1351) and Oliver’s (8/1373) death, and the death of Oliver’s son John abroad in his father’s lifetime, Henry had outlived all of his siblings and took possession of the manors of East Luccombe and Selworthy. John’s widow Elizabeth tried to dispute this but without success; Henry remained in possession. Henry also held Stockleigh Luccombe in socage of the heirs of William Baggeputz by the service of one pair of white spurs.
> The detail here comes from membrane 13 Nov 2 1339, Kennington;
> • Licence for Alexander de Sancto Johanne and Elizabeth (widow of Hugh Luccombe) his wife and Oliver De Sancto Johanne and Elizabeth (Luccombe) his wife to Enfeoff Richard de Morcastre, parson of the church of Luccombe, of the manor of East Luccombe co Somerset, and the advowsons of the churches of Luccombe and Selworthy, held in chief as of the honour of Pynkeneye, and for him to re-grant the same to the said Alexander and Elizabeth his wife for life, with successive remainders in tail to Oliver and Elizabeth his wife, to John, Theobald and Henry, sons of the said Alexander, and reversion to the right heirs of the said John.
> The Honour of Pinkney was owned by Hugh de Luccombe
> Several sources suggest that the St Johns of Instow and Luccombe are the same as the St Johns of Fonmon/Faumont in Glamorgan. So I tried to make the data above fit what is known about the Fonmon St Johns.
> Elizabeth Luccombe was born on 5 May 1320, as this date was attested before she married Oliver St John so there is one fixed date. The birth date of 1346 for Oliver suggested by several web sites seems far too late, allowing little time for Elizabeth Luccombe’s early death, a second marriage to Elizabeth Delabere and a son, another John who presented as an adult to Instow church in 1379 and 1387. One source even suggests a birthdate for the younger John of 1383 ie after Oliver’s death!
> The 1346 birth date for Oliver seems to cause an extra generation to be added, allowing a Sir John St John who married Elizabeth Paveley, before the Alexander St John who married Elizabeth Umfreville, except that Alexander was called John who seems to have the same dates and wife as Alexander! Brownbill suggested that it was Collins who suggested the name of John, and this has been widely copied.
> What is needed is a definitive family tree for the St Johns of Fonmon. Help!
> Then I noticed that the St Johns Genealogy web site suggests Alexander as the son of Sir John St John of Lageham, 1st baron, so I have extended Alexander’s family to reflect this option.
> .
> *********************************************************************
> Alexander St John, of Instow and East Luccombe, c1286- aft 1351. Born Stanton St John, Oxon. Died in Instow, Devon. Alexander married first Margaret Arundell (mother of the children), and then Elizabeth widow of Hugh Luccombe (-1323), whose daughter and heiress Elizabeth (1320-) married Alexander’s eldest son Sir Oliver (1320-1373).
> The St John Project web site claims that Alexander was the youngest son of Sir John de St John, first baron St John of Lageham (c1255 – bef 7/1316). Although called baron of Lageham, in Surrey, they lived in Stanton St John, Oxfordshire. A major extra landholding in Swallowfield came by Roger St John’s (John’s father) marriage to a Despenser heir.
> Many primary records are included within the St John Project web site and I have been very selective in including the following. These records have to tie a specific St John to a specific area.
> One outstanding query relates to the wife shown for the first baron shown as Beatrix Broye, who I thought was married to a John de St John (c 1267 -aft 1346) of the Fonmon/Faumont line. Stirnet shows the wife of the first baron as Margaret, and Geni as Maud FitzNigel.
> There are two references confirming that John de St John of Lageham held Instow (near Barnstaple, Devon)
> 1296 held the fee of Instow. J Brownbill art cit 356 Cardiff Records Vol 1 (Cardiff 1898) 264
> 1316 held the fee of Instow. Inquisitions and Assessments related to Feudal Aids 1284-1431 Vol (London 1899), 372, 375
> Children as follows;
> • John de St John, 2nd baron. C1276 (Lageham) died 16/6/1332
> • William de St John. (c1278 – c 1353)
> • Nicholas of Glympton, (c 1279 -1362)
> • Thomas St John. (c1280 – c 1360) Died in Lageham
> • Henry St John (c 1283- 1309). Cleric of Doddicombsleigh, Devon
> • Laurence St John, ( c1284 -aft 1308) Hellestone, Devon
> • Edward St John (c 1285- aft 1312) Tawstock, Devon
> • Alexander St John (c 1286 -aft 1351), born Stanton St John. Templar?, died Instow
> Alexander St John references
> • 1307. Alexander son of John of Staunton (Stanton?) to grant land in Eversholt to the Abbot and convent of Woburn, Beds .
> • 1316 Inherited Instow from his father?
> • 1318 The Register of Bishop Grandisson (Instow). Alexander de Sancto Johanne presents to Instow
> • 1333 Tawstock (near Barnstaple)“Alexander de Sancto Johanne, Knight Templar. Most curious of all, just outside Barnstaple lies a chapel of St John, very near to the interestingly named village of Templeton, the parish records of which list one Alexander de Sancto Johanne as being a regular attendee at the chapel and describes him as a Knight Templar, which is odd because the records are dated 1333, 20 years after the Templars were supposed to have been forced to leave the order or be imprisoned”.
> • 2/11/1339 Alexander St John was granted East Luccombe on his marriage to Elizabeth Luccombe, and his son Oliver’s marriage to her daughter.
> • 1351 The register of Bishop Grandisson (for Instow). This is far later than the dates for the John/Alexander St John of Fonmon.
>
> All feedback welcome!
>
> Colin Piper

It was Scandinavian custom to provide for all children - especially the younger ones. The St. Johns in numerous wills provided for all children and their siblings because they were all equal heirs. It's why you'll see properties divided into moieties or equal parts or a form of that. Often the eldest child received a double portion. They didn't follow primogeniture. This custom is seen all the way down to the St. Johns that came to Colonial America - often leaving their homesteads to the younger children after the elder children left to make a life of their own. In Wales it's often described as Gavelkind.

On Friday, 4 August 2023 at 04:25:10 UTC+1, Hikaru Kitabayashi wrote:
> On Monday, May 22, 2023 at 8:57:19 PM UTC+9, Colin Piper wrote:
> > On Sunday, 14 May 2023 at 15:25:05 UTC+1, Hickory wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 12:04:35 AM UTC+9, Colin Piper wrote:
> > > > In Search of Thomas St John, of Charing Kent. Related names Cotton, Savage, Langham, Arundell
> > > > I am trying to find the ancestry of Thomas St John of Charing in Kent, and think that I have made a breakthrough.
> > > > This note is as short as possible and if anyone wants more detail on any of the references then please let me know.
> > > > I hope that names in bold are direct ancestors.
> > > > I consider myself to be descended from the marriage of Richard Cotton (c1480- aft 1534), of Hamstall Ridware (Staffordshire) and Johanna St John (c 1476 -1534), daughter of Thomas St John of Charing, (Kent).
> > > > The marriage above is documented on the sides of an Altar Tomb in Hamstall Ridware Church, dedicated to John Cotton (-c1478) and Joanna Fitzherbert of Norbury (c1435-c 1525), and lists brief details of their 15 children. This Altar Tomb must have been erected in the lifetime of their children as it lists some that died early and who are not documented elsewhere. If anyone wants a copy of the transcriptions on the side of the Altar Tomb then please let me know.
> > > > The relevant wording for Richard Cotton is “Richard mar Jahne one of the daughters and heirs to Thomas St John of Charyng in Kent, also to Alis daughter to Gilbert Savage.”
> > > > The wording for Richard’s elder brother John Cotton is “John mar Alice, daughter and heir to Richard Langham, of Langham, co Suffolk”
> > > > The fact that Alice Langham was married first to Thomas St John, is not covered above, but is clearly shown via the Langham of Langham family tree shown in Muskett’s Suffolk Manorial Families.
> > > > At this point, the following extra information is available
> > > > • Alice Langham and Thomas St John married in 1473
> > > > • There were 4 daughters; Joanna, Bridget (married William Waller), Elizabeth (married John Haward), and NN
> > > > • The manors shown for Thomas (Panfield and Hempstead, both in Essex) were those of his wife Alice, so she must have had some wealth. No mention of Charing in Kent, so assume that Thomas did not then have a connection with Charing.
> > > > • Thomas died around 1478/9 ( 4 daughters after 1473 v Alice marriage to John in 1481)
> > > > • Alice subsequently married John Cotton in 1481. John was born c 1460, Alice probably c1455, and a new family of Cottons arose in Panfield
> > > > • Richard Cotton was the youngest surviving brother of John Cotton, and married Joanna the daughter of Alice Langham and Thomas St John
> > > > A great deal of personal research about St John families in Charing, Kent turned up absolutely nothing about Thomas and very little about the St John family. This includes;
> > > > • Edward Hasted’s History and Topographicial Survey of the County of Kent, Vol 7(1798) describes “…..Burleigh or Burley Manor,( Charing) came into the possession of the St Johns who bore for their arms Argent, a mullet sable on a chief gules, three mullets pierced of the first. At length Avis daughter of William St John of Charing carried it in marriage to Humphry Barrey esq who afterwards dwelt here, and was from hence styled Barrey, of Charing. But it does not seem to have remained long in this name, for it soon afterwards came into the possession of a family, called Dallingridge, of eminent note in Hampshire, whose arms were Argent, a cross engailed, gules; and Sir Edward Dallingridge by fine levied in the first year of King Richard II (1377), passed it away to Roger Dallingridge and Alice his wife, and they not long afterwards conveyed it by sale to Thomas Brockhull of Calehill….”. Few dates and vague. But see later on
> > > > • Edward St John of Barlavington (who was also the Edward St John of Kent covered later on) is shown as a debtor on 21/10/1390 with a debt proven against William Best, the elder, of Charing in Kent
> > > > • A Canterbury Will existed for an Edward St John of Charing in 1457. In latin OK, but the script was hard for me to read. But see later on.
> > > > In the course of this research I learned a lot about the various St John lines. This is not the place or space to describe how the various lines fit in with each other, and how so many Johns, Edwards, Olivers, and Alexanders with similar dates have resulted in so many inconsistent family trees, even the professionally family trees!
> > > > This research proved useful in helping my wife’s research her own St John ancestors, where the most recent example was the Barbara St John of Bletso who married Thomas William Coventry, the 6th Earl of Coventry.
> > > > During 2015 a long discussion evolved in Soc Gen Med about the five Sir Edward St Johns who were alive at the same time during the 1300’s and included the mention of a Sir Edward St John, “of Kent” died before 1398, who married Alice (died 1422) the widow of Roger Dallingridge. Alice was said to own many manors in Kent. My research showed that Burleigh Manor, Charing was one of those and transferred to Roger and Alice Dallingridge in 1377. Roger Dallingridge died in 1380, and Alice subsequently married Sir Edward St John. I am taking Edward Hasted’s words “not long afterwards” meaning as before Roger Dallingridge’s death, so the manor of Burleigh almost made it back to the St Johns before being sold off again. But Edward St John did have dealings in Charing as judged by the debitor note above.
> > > > If “my” Thomas St John of Charing had any connection with Burleigh Manor (even if he did not own it) there is some circumstantial evidence that Thomas was somehow descended from the marriage of Sir Edward St John of Kent and Alice. But I just needed to find the descent to Thomas.
> > > > Alas, I have not found this link. Edward St John (-1398) and Alice had a son William (-1437) who had a son John, who had a daughter Elizabeth, so no obvious way through to the dates for Thomas St John. If anyone has better information than this, then please let me know.
> > > > It seemed a brick wall.
> > > > Amongst the Canterbury Wills was one for Edward St John of Charing in Kent who died in 1457 (probate date 22/12/1457) and who just might have been Thomas’s father. This Will was in latin and was translated for me by an expert at Devon Heritage Centre in Exeter.
> > > > Edward St John of Charing (-1457) proved also to be Edward St John of East Luccombe and Selworthy (-1457), both on the Devon/Somerset border! Edward’s will makes various gifts to the churches in these villages, leaves a house to his servant, and leaves the estate to his eldest son William. If you want a copy of the will then please let me know.
> > > > I was not expecting this, so research took off in a new direction.
> > > > The St Johns of East Luccombe are described in ;
> > > > • Wikipedia (very briefly)
> > > > • Geni (very patchy)
> > > > • The Parish of Selworthy in the county of Somerset, by Frederick Hancock (vicar)
> > > > • St John of Bletsoe by John Brownbill (1931)
> > > > • St John Genealogy Project (which includes a large number of original sources)
> > > > • Stirnet and Complete Peerage cover the St Johns of Fonmon and Lageham. Luccombe is not specifically mentioned, but some of the names mentioned may also be from Instow and Luccombe.
> > > > Lots of words and at least two printed family trees of the St John family of Luccombe, which unfortunately differ.
> > > > There is a Thomas St John in one of the family trees, who was born in 1430 with sp written beside the name. SP means Sine Prole means no children? Not Sans Pareil! Thomas must have been c 43 when he married Alice Langham, so there is scope for an earlier marriage without children, or a very late marriage. It all depends on what information was available when the family tree was put together, in a situation where his two siblings were much higher profile. Thomas’s parents were Edward St John (18/2/1395 -1457) and Joan le Jewe (c 1400-) daughter of William and Alice le Jewe.
> > > > The case for Thomas depends on;
> > > > • Dates are right
> > > > • “Of Charing” is shared with Edward St John, who is shown as his father in the family tree
> > > > • he had a mother called Joan(ne), a sister called Joan(na) and a daughter called Joan(na).
> > > > • Reference to Thomas (and Joanna) in the provision made by Edward St John
> > > > Just need to understand the sp. Perhaps it was sp at the point when William dies in 1473.
> > > > Edward and Joan had children as follows;
> > > > • William St John, (c1420 – 20/9/1473) married Alice. Before leaving his property to William, Edward had made provision for his two younger children Joanna and Thomas
> > > > • Joanna St John (c 1425-5/6/1482) married Nicholas de Arundell of Trerice in Cornwall and received William’s property on the death of William’s widow Alice. East Luccombe and Selworthy were held by the Arundell family for hundreds of years until being passed by marriage to the Wentworth family (1768) and then the Acland family (1802) of Holnicot and Killerton. Selworthy and East Luccombe are now owned by the National Trust, following Sir Richard Acland’s gift in 1944.
> > > > • Thomas St John (c1430-) sp. See above
> > > > I have not yet found the document detailing the provision made by Edward for Thomas and it very possible that it was the property owned by Edward in Charing and where he died in 1457. It may just be coincidence that Burleigh Manor was also situated in Charing?
> > > > Edward’s father was Henry St John (c 1336- 24/9/1406), who married Isabelle with children as follows;
> > > > • Edward St John, (18/2/1395 – 1457) who married Joan Jewe (c 1400) daughter of William and Alice Jewe. Edward has left a will, filed under Edward St John of Charing. Edward had perfectly good properties in East Luccombe/Selworthy, so why is he titled “of Charing” for the purpose of his will?
> > > > Henry St John was the youngest son of Alexander St John and Margaret Arundell who was one of the Cornish family, and not a family member from the FitzAlan earls of Arundel.
> > > > • Sir Oliver St John (c1320-1373) who married Elizabeth Luccombe, had son John who married another Elizabeth and died abroad, without legitimate offspring. Other family trees give Oliver a second wife after Elizabeth’s death and a line that leads to the St John’s of Bletso. See below
> > > > • John St John c1322-bef 1380
> > > > • Alexandra St John c1324 -1375
> > > > • Theobald St John c 1330- bef 1380
> > > > • Henry St John c 1336 – 24/9/1406. IPM writ 10/10/1406 Exeter
> > > > After Alexander’s (aft 1351) and Oliver’s (8/1373) death, and the death of Oliver’s son John abroad in his father’s lifetime, Henry had outlived all of his siblings and took possession of the manors of East Luccombe and Selworthy. John’s widow Elizabeth tried to dispute this but without success; Henry remained in possession.. Henry also held Stockleigh Luccombe in socage of the heirs of William Baggeputz by the service of one pair of white spurs.
> > > > The detail here comes from membrane 13 Nov 2 1339, Kennington;
> > > > • Licence for Alexander de Sancto Johanne and Elizabeth (widow of Hugh Luccombe) his wife and Oliver De Sancto Johanne and Elizabeth (Luccombe) his wife to Enfeoff Richard de Morcastre, parson of the church of Luccombe, of the manor of East Luccombe co Somerset, and the advowsons of the churches of Luccombe and Selworthy, held in chief as of the honour of Pynkeneye, and for him to re-grant the same to the said Alexander and Elizabeth his wife for life, with successive remainders in tail to Oliver and Elizabeth his wife, to John, Theobald and Henry, sons of the said Alexander, and reversion to the right heirs of the said John.
> > > > The Honour of Pinkney was owned by Hugh de Luccombe
> > > > Several sources suggest that the St Johns of Instow and Luccombe are the same as the St Johns of Fonmon/Faumont in Glamorgan. So I tried to make the data above fit what is known about the Fonmon St Johns.
> > > > Elizabeth Luccombe was born on 5 May 1320, as this date was attested before she married Oliver St John so there is one fixed date. The birth date of 1346 for Oliver suggested by several web sites seems far too late, allowing little time for Elizabeth Luccombe’s early death, a second marriage to Elizabeth Delabere and a son, another John who presented as an adult to Instow church in 1379 and 1387. One source even suggests a birthdate for the younger John of 1383 ie after Oliver’s death!
> > > > The 1346 birth date for Oliver seems to cause an extra generation to be added, allowing a Sir John St John who married Elizabeth Paveley, before the Alexander St John who married Elizabeth Umfreville, except that Alexander was called John who seems to have the same dates and wife as Alexander! Brownbill suggested that it was Collins who suggested the name of John, and this has been widely copied.
> > > > What is needed is a definitive family tree for the St Johns of Fonmon. Help!
> > > > Then I noticed that the St Johns Genealogy web site suggests Alexander as the son of Sir John St John of Lageham, 1st baron, so I have extended Alexander’s family to reflect this option.
> > > > .
> > > > *********************************************************************
> > > > Alexander St John, of Instow and East Luccombe, c1286- aft 1351. Born Stanton St John, Oxon. Died in Instow, Devon. Alexander married first Margaret Arundell (mother of the children), and then Elizabeth widow of Hugh Luccombe (-1323), whose daughter and heiress Elizabeth (1320-) married Alexander’s eldest son Sir Oliver (1320-1373).
> > > > The St John Project web site claims that Alexander was the youngest son of Sir John de St John, first baron St John of Lageham (c1255 – bef 7/1316). Although called baron of Lageham, in Surrey, they lived in Stanton St John, Oxfordshire. A major extra landholding in Swallowfield came by Roger St John’s (John’s father) marriage to a Despenser heir.
> > > > Many primary records are included within the St John Project web site and I have been very selective in including the following. These records have to tie a specific St John to a specific area.
> > > > One outstanding query relates to the wife shown for the first baron shown as Beatrix Broye, who I thought was married to a John de St John (c 1267 -aft 1346) of the Fonmon/Faumont line. Stirnet shows the wife of the first baron as Margaret, and Geni as Maud FitzNigel.
> > > > There are two references confirming that John de St John of Lageham held Instow (near Barnstaple, Devon)
> > > > 1296 held the fee of Instow. J Brownbill art cit 356 Cardiff Records Vol 1 (Cardiff 1898) 264
> > > > 1316 held the fee of Instow. Inquisitions and Assessments related to Feudal Aids 1284-1431 Vol (London 1899), 372, 375
> > > > Children as follows;
> > > > • John de St John, 2nd baron. C1276 (Lageham) died 16/6/1332
> > > > • William de St John. (c1278 – c 1353)
> > > > • Nicholas of Glympton, (c 1279 -1362)
> > > > • Thomas St John. (c1280 – c 1360) Died in Lageham
> > > > • Henry St John (c 1283- 1309). Cleric of Doddicombsleigh, Devon
> > > > • Laurence St John, ( c1284 -aft 1308) Hellestone, Devon
> > > > • Edward St John (c 1285- aft 1312) Tawstock, Devon
> > > > • Alexander St John (c 1286 -aft 1351), born Stanton St John. Templar?, died Instow
> > > > Alexander St John references
> > > > • 1307. Alexander son of John of Staunton (Stanton?) to grant land in Eversholt to the Abbot and convent of Woburn, Beds .
> > > > • 1316 Inherited Instow from his father?
> > > > • 1318 The Register of Bishop Grandisson (Instow). Alexander de Sancto Johanne presents to Instow
> > > > • 1333 Tawstock (near Barnstaple)“Alexander de Sancto Johanne, Knight Templar. Most curious of all, just outside Barnstaple lies a chapel of St John, very near to the interestingly named village of Templeton, the parish records of which list one Alexander de Sancto Johanne as being a regular attendee at the chapel and describes him as a Knight Templar, which is odd because the records are dated 1333, 20 years after the Templars were supposed to have been forced to leave the order or be imprisoned”.
> > > > • 2/11/1339 Alexander St John was granted East Luccombe on his marriage to Elizabeth Luccombe, and his son Oliver’s marriage to her daughter.
> > > > • 1351 The register of Bishop Grandisson (for Instow). This is far later than the dates for the John/Alexander St John of Fonmon.
> > > >
> > > > All feedback welcome!
> > > >
> > > > Colin Piper
> > > Dear Mr Piper,
> > > Thanks to a pdf of the original UK National Archive complaint by Richard Cotton, the husband of Joan St. John and of Alice Savage, against a certain Alice Eyton for not returning presents he had given her as a quid pro quo for a promise of marriage, I am in a position to give approximates of Richard's two marriages. The dating on the back side of the document would indicate that the complaint was in London sometime in November 1514, a date consistent with other datable documents having their origin in the same bundle of chancery cases dealt with by Archbishop Warham of Canterbury. Richard's son Nicholas can be dated as having been born no later than 1512 but more probably at a date of around 1507 is more likely. Richard has at least one son named Humphrey for whom a birth year of no later than 1506 can inferred. Richard's son John is sometimes mentioned as the oldest son but due to the very late dates his children were born is unlikely to have been born much before 1505. There is another presumed son Francis mentioned in a church census of around 1532. In the same census, Humphrey Cotton is mentioned for Hampstall Ridware twice, once as a child of Richard and once as an independent householder. It is generally assumed that these are the same individual, but Burton's family tree dating to the early 17th century shows two, an older Humphrey (Joan St. John's son) who is given no wife and a younger one (Alice Savage's) who is. Various land dealings involving Richard and Humphrey make it likely that the older Humphrey was the only Humphrey, but still do not make it impossible that a younger one existed, too. If the younger one did exist, though, the before-mentioned land dealings make it virtually impossible for him to have been born later than the very beginning of 1516. On the balance, it would seem to me that Richard Cotton and Joan St. John were both approaching 30 when they married and seem to have had at least three sons in relatively quick order. Francis (spelled Frances, but not necessarily indicating a female in the early 16th century) I think is just as likely to have been a son of Joan St. John as of Alice Savage. The reason for thinking that this is a male rather than a female is because of male Francis Cottons appearing in the same part of Staffordshire later in the 16th century for whom DNA testing of possible descendants would indicate a common descent with Humphrey and John's descendants. Nevertheless, it is not impossible for Frances to have been a daughter, but again of which woman is not clear. For onomastic reasons, Richard's three daughters Maude, Ellen, and Dorothy are all likely to have been Alice's daughters. Concerning Maude, in particular, there is absolutely no doubt, as both of the two early 17th century pedigree's show her as Alice's daughter by Richard. Concerning Joan St. John, it is now clear that she died by mid-1514, and it would seem that Richard was looking for a wife who would take care of his children for. Their ages could have been as young as two years of age for the youngest to no more than ten years of age for the oldest. My estimated birth year for Alice is around 1490, making her at the time of her marriage already past suitable marriage age. Richard Cotton would have been born around 1475, thus contemporary with his first wife, but not his second. I will continue to do more research. I have uncovered several leads which once I can examine pdf's of the original documents will allow me to clarify things further. Incidentally, both of Richard's wives have a very interesting ancestry. On Joan's side, her mother Alice Langham had Sir John Hawkwood (a late 14th century English national military hero) as an ancestor. On Alice's side, her great grandmother was the sister of the first earl of Derby and thus the sister-in-law of Margaret Beaufort, the mother of Henry VII by Edmund Tudor, the earl of Richmond.
> > > Best wishes,
> > > Hikaru
> > Thanks for this Hikaru.
> >
> > Please keep up the good work with more PDF's! You seem to have a rare skill of replacing guesses with real dates.
> >
> > I am aware of the John Savage marriage to Katherine Stanley, and what happened to both families after 1485.
> >
> > What I have not found yet is a son Gilbert of this marriage, a Gilbert who married ?? and was the father of Alice Savage who married Richard Cotton. Also so many children have been credited to John and Katherine, that I am seeking a definitive list of these children. What would you advise here?
> >
> > Again thank you
> >
> > Colin
> Dear Colin,
>
> Record of a court case involving the estate of Gilbert Savage can be found on the National Archives Discovery search engine. Two references to him can be found in Visitation in connection with a daughter of his marrying into the Hyde family. Chronologically, the only Sir John Savage that fits as the father of Gilbert is the Sir John Savage who was the son of yet another Sir John Savage and his wife Katherine Stanley, the sister of the first earl of Derby. This younger Sir John Savage was born in the 1440s and old enough to have had a younger son Gilbert who was the father of Alice (born around 1490 to 1495), the second wife of Richard Cotton. Because the younger Sir John Savage died before his father, he had no property of his own at the time of his death, meaning that no inquisition post mortem was made. His death was sudden, meaning also that there was no will, thus meaning he left behind no means of identifying his children, something which must be done indirectly. There was fortunately at one time in the past a brass in the church of Hampstall Ridware (it no longer exists in a readable form) which describes Alice as the daughter of Gilbert Savage the son of Sir John Savage. The only Sir John Savage for whom all the surviving clues fit is the the younger Sir John Savage just mentioned.

On Saturday, August 5, 2023 at 2:02:08 AM UTC+9, Suzanne St. John wrote:
> It was Scandinavian custom to provide for all children - especially the younger ones. The St. Johns in numerous wills provided for all children and their siblings because they were all equal heirs. It's why you'll see properties divided into moieties or equal parts or a form of that. Often the eldest child received a double portion. They didn't follow primogeniture. This custom is seen all the way down to the St. Johns that came to Colonial America - often leaving their homesteads to the younger children after the elder children left to make a life of their own. In Wales it's often described as Gavelkind.
It may be a Scandinavian custom, certainly it was a German one. But, under medieval English commonlaw, it could not be done with regard to land simply by making a will. There legal procedures to go, court cases to undergo, and, occasionally, royal dispensation. It's not that it couldn't happen. It's just that, if it did happen, there would have been legally required documentation which, being official, would still be available in the National Archives for those making a search.

On Saturday, August 5, 2023 at 10:09:09 PM UTC+9, Colin Piper wrote:
> On Friday, 4 August 2023 at 04:25:10 UTC+1, Hikaru Kitabayashi wrote:
> > On Monday, May 22, 2023 at 8:57:19 PM UTC+9, Colin Piper wrote:
> > > On Sunday, 14 May 2023 at 15:25:05 UTC+1, Hickory wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 12:04:35 AM UTC+9, Colin Piper wrote:
> > > > > In Search of Thomas St John, of Charing Kent. Related names Cotton, Savage, Langham, Arundell
> > > > > I am trying to find the ancestry of Thomas St John of Charing in Kent, and think that I have made a breakthrough.
> > > > > This note is as short as possible and if anyone wants more detail on any of the references then please let me know.
> > > > > I hope that names in bold are direct ancestors.
> > > > > I consider myself to be descended from the marriage of Richard Cotton (c1480- aft 1534), of Hamstall Ridware (Staffordshire) and Johanna St John (c 1476 -1534), daughter of Thomas St John of Charing, (Kent).
> > > > > The marriage above is documented on the sides of an Altar Tomb in Hamstall Ridware Church, dedicated to John Cotton (-c1478) and Joanna Fitzherbert of Norbury (c1435-c 1525), and lists brief details of their 15 children. This Altar Tomb must have been erected in the lifetime of their children as it lists some that died early and who are not documented elsewhere. If anyone wants a copy of the transcriptions on the side of the Altar Tomb then please let me know.
> > > > > The relevant wording for Richard Cotton is “Richard mar Jahne one of the daughters and heirs to Thomas St John of Charyng in Kent, also to Alis daughter to Gilbert Savage.”
> > > > > The wording for Richard’s elder brother John Cotton is “John mar Alice, daughter and heir to Richard Langham, of Langham, co Suffolk”
> > > > > The fact that Alice Langham was married first to Thomas St John, is not covered above, but is clearly shown via the Langham of Langham family tree shown in Muskett’s Suffolk Manorial Families.
> > > > > At this point, the following extra information is available
> > > > > • Alice Langham and Thomas St John married in 1473
> > > > > • There were 4 daughters; Joanna, Bridget (married William Waller), Elizabeth (married John Haward), and NN
> > > > > • The manors shown for Thomas (Panfield and Hempstead, both in Essex) were those of his wife Alice, so she must have had some wealth.. No mention of Charing in Kent, so assume that Thomas did not then have a connection with Charing.
> > > > > • Thomas died around 1478/9 ( 4 daughters after 1473 v Alice marriage to John in 1481)
> > > > > • Alice subsequently married John Cotton in 1481. John was born c 1460, Alice probably c1455, and a new family of Cottons arose in Panfield
> > > > > • Richard Cotton was the youngest surviving brother of John Cotton, and married Joanna the daughter of Alice Langham and Thomas St John
> > > > > A great deal of personal research about St John families in Charing, Kent turned up absolutely nothing about Thomas and very little about the St John family. This includes;
> > > > > • Edward Hasted’s History and Topographicial Survey of the County of Kent, Vol 7(1798) describes “…..Burleigh or Burley Manor,( Charing) came into the possession of the St Johns who bore for their arms Argent, a mullet sable on a chief gules, three mullets pierced of the first. At length Avis daughter of William St John of Charing carried it in marriage to Humphry Barrey esq who afterwards dwelt here, and was from hence styled Barrey, of Charing. But it does not seem to have remained long in this name, for it soon afterwards came into the possession of a family, called Dallingridge, of eminent note in Hampshire, whose arms were Argent, a cross engailed, gules; and Sir Edward Dallingridge by fine levied in the first year of King Richard II (1377), passed it away to Roger Dallingridge and Alice his wife, and they not long afterwards conveyed it by sale to Thomas Brockhull of Calehill….”. Few dates and vague. But see later on
> > > > > • Edward St John of Barlavington (who was also the Edward St John of Kent covered later on) is shown as a debtor on 21/10/1390 with a debt proven against William Best, the elder, of Charing in Kent
> > > > > • A Canterbury Will existed for an Edward St John of Charing in 1457. In latin OK, but the script was hard for me to read. But see later on.
> > > > > In the course of this research I learned a lot about the various St John lines. This is not the place or space to describe how the various lines fit in with each other, and how so many Johns, Edwards, Olivers, and Alexanders with similar dates have resulted in so many inconsistent family trees, even the professionally family trees!
> > > > > This research proved useful in helping my wife’s research her own St John ancestors, where the most recent example was the Barbara St John of Bletso who married Thomas William Coventry, the 6th Earl of Coventry.
> > > > > During 2015 a long discussion evolved in Soc Gen Med about the five Sir Edward St Johns who were alive at the same time during the 1300’s and included the mention of a Sir Edward St John, “of Kent” died before 1398, who married Alice (died 1422) the widow of Roger Dallingridge. Alice was said to own many manors in Kent. My research showed that Burleigh Manor, Charing was one of those and transferred to Roger and Alice Dallingridge in 1377. Roger Dallingridge died in 1380, and Alice subsequently married Sir Edward St John. I am taking Edward Hasted’s words “not long afterwards” meaning as before Roger Dallingridge’s death, so the manor of Burleigh almost made it back to the St Johns before being sold off again. But Edward St John did have dealings in Charing as judged by the debitor note above.
> > > > > If “my” Thomas St John of Charing had any connection with Burleigh Manor (even if he did not own it) there is some circumstantial evidence that Thomas was somehow descended from the marriage of Sir Edward St John of Kent and Alice. But I just needed to find the descent to Thomas.
> > > > > Alas, I have not found this link. Edward St John (-1398) and Alice had a son William (-1437) who had a son John, who had a daughter Elizabeth, so no obvious way through to the dates for Thomas St John. If anyone has better information than this, then please let me know.
> > > > > It seemed a brick wall.
> > > > > Amongst the Canterbury Wills was one for Edward St John of Charing in Kent who died in 1457 (probate date 22/12/1457) and who just might have been Thomas’s father. This Will was in latin and was translated for me by an expert at Devon Heritage Centre in Exeter.
> > > > > Edward St John of Charing (-1457) proved also to be Edward St John of East Luccombe and Selworthy (-1457), both on the Devon/Somerset border! Edward’s will makes various gifts to the churches in these villages, leaves a house to his servant, and leaves the estate to his eldest son William. If you want a copy of the will then please let me know.
> > > > > I was not expecting this, so research took off in a new direction..
> > > > > The St Johns of East Luccombe are described in ;
> > > > > • Wikipedia (very briefly)
> > > > > • Geni (very patchy)
> > > > > • The Parish of Selworthy in the county of Somerset, by Frederick Hancock (vicar)
> > > > > • St John of Bletsoe by John Brownbill (1931)
> > > > > • St John Genealogy Project (which includes a large number of original sources)
> > > > > • Stirnet and Complete Peerage cover the St Johns of Fonmon and Lageham. Luccombe is not specifically mentioned, but some of the names mentioned may also be from Instow and Luccombe.
> > > > > Lots of words and at least two printed family trees of the St John family of Luccombe, which unfortunately differ.
> > > > > There is a Thomas St John in one of the family trees, who was born in 1430 with sp written beside the name. SP means Sine Prole means no children? Not Sans Pareil! Thomas must have been c 43 when he married Alice Langham, so there is scope for an earlier marriage without children, or a very late marriage. It all depends on what information was available when the family tree was put together, in a situation where his two siblings were much higher profile. Thomas’s parents were Edward St John (18/2/1395 -1457) and Joan le Jewe (c 1400-) daughter of William and Alice le Jewe.
> > > > > The case for Thomas depends on;
> > > > > • Dates are right
> > > > > • “Of Charing” is shared with Edward St John, who is shown as his father in the family tree
> > > > > • he had a mother called Joan(ne), a sister called Joan(na) and a daughter called Joan(na).
> > > > > • Reference to Thomas (and Joanna) in the provision made by Edward St John
> > > > > Just need to understand the sp. Perhaps it was sp at the point when William dies in 1473.
> > > > > Edward and Joan had children as follows;
> > > > > • William St John, (c1420 – 20/9/1473) married Alice. Before leaving his property to William, Edward had made provision for his two younger children Joanna and Thomas
> > > > > • Joanna St John (c 1425-5/6/1482) married Nicholas de Arundell of Trerice in Cornwall and received William’s property on the death of William’s widow Alice. East Luccombe and Selworthy were held by the Arundell family for hundreds of years until being passed by marriage to the Wentworth family (1768) and then the Acland family (1802) of Holnicot and Killerton. Selworthy and East Luccombe are now owned by the National Trust, following Sir Richard Acland’s gift in 1944.
> > > > > • Thomas St John (c1430-) sp. See above
> > > > > I have not yet found the document detailing the provision made by Edward for Thomas and it very possible that it was the property owned by Edward in Charing and where he died in 1457. It may just be coincidence that Burleigh Manor was also situated in Charing?
> > > > > Edward’s father was Henry St John (c 1336- 24/9/1406), who married Isabelle with children as follows;
> > > > > • Edward St John, (18/2/1395 – 1457) who married Joan Jewe (c 1400) daughter of William and Alice Jewe. Edward has left a will, filed under Edward St John of Charing. Edward had perfectly good properties in East Luccombe/Selworthy, so why is he titled “of Charing” for the purpose of his will?
> > > > > Henry St John was the youngest son of Alexander St John and Margaret Arundell who was one of the Cornish family, and not a family member from the FitzAlan earls of Arundel.
> > > > > • Sir Oliver St John (c1320-1373) who married Elizabeth Luccombe, had son John who married another Elizabeth and died abroad, without legitimate offspring. Other family trees give Oliver a second wife after Elizabeth’s death and a line that leads to the St John’s of Bletso. See below
> > > > > • John St John c1322-bef 1380
> > > > > • Alexandra St John c1324 -1375
> > > > > • Theobald St John c 1330- bef 1380
> > > > > • Henry St John c 1336 – 24/9/1406. IPM writ 10/10/1406 Exeter
> > > > > After Alexander’s (aft 1351) and Oliver’s (8/1373) death, and the death of Oliver’s son John abroad in his father’s lifetime, Henry had outlived all of his siblings and took possession of the manors of East Luccombe and Selworthy. John’s widow Elizabeth tried to dispute this but without success; Henry remained in possession.. Henry also held Stockleigh Luccombe in socage of the heirs of William Baggeputz by the service of one pair of white spurs.
> > > > > The detail here comes from membrane 13 Nov 2 1339, Kennington;
> > > > > • Licence for Alexander de Sancto Johanne and Elizabeth (widow of Hugh Luccombe) his wife and Oliver De Sancto Johanne and Elizabeth (Luccombe) his wife to Enfeoff Richard de Morcastre, parson of the church of Luccombe, of the manor of East Luccombe co Somerset, and the advowsons of the churches of Luccombe and Selworthy, held in chief as of the honour of Pynkeneye, and for him to re-grant the same to the said Alexander and Elizabeth his wife for life, with successive remainders in tail to Oliver and Elizabeth his wife, to John, Theobald and Henry, sons of the said Alexander, and reversion to the right heirs of the said John.
> > > > > The Honour of Pinkney was owned by Hugh de Luccombe
> > > > > Several sources suggest that the St Johns of Instow and Luccombe are the same as the St Johns of Fonmon/Faumont in Glamorgan. So I tried to make the data above fit what is known about the Fonmon St Johns.
> > > > > Elizabeth Luccombe was born on 5 May 1320, as this date was attested before she married Oliver St John so there is one fixed date. The birth date of 1346 for Oliver suggested by several web sites seems far too late, allowing little time for Elizabeth Luccombe’s early death, a second marriage to Elizabeth Delabere and a son, another John who presented as an adult to Instow church in 1379 and 1387. One source even suggests a birthdate for the younger John of 1383 ie after Oliver’s death!
> > > > > The 1346 birth date for Oliver seems to cause an extra generation to be added, allowing a Sir John St John who married Elizabeth Paveley, before the Alexander St John who married Elizabeth Umfreville, except that Alexander was called John who seems to have the same dates and wife as Alexander! Brownbill suggested that it was Collins who suggested the name of John, and this has been widely copied.
> > > > > What is needed is a definitive family tree for the St Johns of Fonmon. Help!
> > > > > Then I noticed that the St Johns Genealogy web site suggests Alexander as the son of Sir John St John of Lageham, 1st baron, so I have extended Alexander’s family to reflect this option.
> > > > > .
> > > > > *********************************************************************
> > > > > Alexander St John, of Instow and East Luccombe, c1286- aft 1351. Born Stanton St John, Oxon. Died in Instow, Devon. Alexander married first Margaret Arundell (mother of the children), and then Elizabeth widow of Hugh Luccombe (-1323), whose daughter and heiress Elizabeth (1320-) married Alexander’s eldest son Sir Oliver (1320-1373).
> > > > > The St John Project web site claims that Alexander was the youngest son of Sir John de St John, first baron St John of Lageham (c1255 – bef 7/1316). Although called baron of Lageham, in Surrey, they lived in Stanton St John, Oxfordshire. A major extra landholding in Swallowfield came by Roger St John’s (John’s father) marriage to a Despenser heir.
> > > > > Many primary records are included within the St John Project web site and I have been very selective in including the following. These records have to tie a specific St John to a specific area.
> > > > > One outstanding query relates to the wife shown for the first baron shown as Beatrix Broye, who I thought was married to a John de St John (c 1267 -aft 1346) of the Fonmon/Faumont line. Stirnet shows the wife of the first baron as Margaret, and Geni as Maud FitzNigel.
> > > > > There are two references confirming that John de St John of Lageham held Instow (near Barnstaple, Devon)
> > > > > 1296 held the fee of Instow. J Brownbill art cit 356 Cardiff Records Vol 1 (Cardiff 1898) 264
> > > > > 1316 held the fee of Instow. Inquisitions and Assessments related to Feudal Aids 1284-1431 Vol (London 1899), 372, 375
> > > > > Children as follows;
> > > > > • John de St John, 2nd baron. C1276 (Lageham) died 16/6/1332
> > > > > • William de St John. (c1278 – c 1353)
> > > > > • Nicholas of Glympton, (c 1279 -1362)
> > > > > • Thomas St John. (c1280 – c 1360) Died in Lageham
> > > > > • Henry St John (c 1283- 1309). Cleric of Doddicombsleigh, Devon
> > > > > • Laurence St John, ( c1284 -aft 1308) Hellestone, Devon
> > > > > • Edward St John (c 1285- aft 1312) Tawstock, Devon
> > > > > • Alexander St John (c 1286 -aft 1351), born Stanton St John. Templar?, died Instow
> > > > > Alexander St John references
> > > > > • 1307. Alexander son of John of Staunton (Stanton?) to grant land in Eversholt to the Abbot and convent of Woburn, Beds .
> > > > > • 1316 Inherited Instow from his father?
> > > > > • 1318 The Register of Bishop Grandisson (Instow). Alexander de Sancto Johanne presents to Instow
> > > > > • 1333 Tawstock (near Barnstaple)“Alexander de Sancto Johanne, Knight Templar. Most curious of all, just outside Barnstaple lies a chapel of St John, very near to the interestingly named village of Templeton, the parish records of which list one Alexander de Sancto Johanne as being a regular attendee at the chapel and describes him as a Knight Templar, which is odd because the records are dated 1333, 20 years after the Templars were supposed to have been forced to leave the order or be imprisoned”.
> > > > > • 2/11/1339 Alexander St John was granted East Luccombe on his marriage to Elizabeth Luccombe, and his son Oliver’s marriage to her daughter.
> > > > > • 1351 The register of Bishop Grandisson (for Instow). This is far later than the dates for the John/Alexander St John of Fonmon.
> > > > >
> > > > > All feedback welcome!
> > > > >
> > > > > Colin Piper
> > > > Dear Mr Piper,
> > > > Thanks to a pdf of the original UK National Archive complaint by Richard Cotton, the husband of Joan St. John and of Alice Savage, against a certain Alice Eyton for not returning presents he had given her as a quid pro quo for a promise of marriage, I am in a position to give approximates of Richard's two marriages. The dating on the back side of the document would indicate that the complaint was in London sometime in November 1514, a date consistent with other datable documents having their origin in the same bundle of chancery cases dealt with by Archbishop Warham of Canterbury. Richard's son Nicholas can be dated as having been born no later than 1512 but more probably at a date of around 1507 is more likely. Richard has at least one son named Humphrey for whom a birth year of no later than 1506 can inferred. Richard's son John is sometimes mentioned as the oldest son but due to the very late dates his children were born is unlikely to have been born much before 1505. There is another presumed son Francis mentioned in a church census of around 1532. In the same census, Humphrey Cotton is mentioned for Hampstall Ridware twice, once as a child of Richard and once as an independent householder. It is generally assumed that these are the same individual, but Burton's family tree dating to the early 17th century shows two, an older Humphrey (Joan St. John's son) who is given no wife and a younger one (Alice Savage's) who is. Various land dealings involving Richard and Humphrey make it likely that the older Humphrey was the only Humphrey, but still do not make it impossible that a younger one existed, too. If the younger one did exist, though, the before-mentioned land dealings make it virtually impossible for him to have been born later than the very beginning of 1516. On the balance, it would seem to me that Richard Cotton and Joan St. John were both approaching 30 when they married and seem to have had at least three sons in relatively quick order. Francis (spelled Frances, but not necessarily indicating a female in the early 16th century) I think is just as likely to have been a son of Joan St. John as of Alice Savage. The reason for thinking that this is a male rather than a female is because of male Francis Cottons appearing in the same part of Staffordshire later in the 16th century for whom DNA testing of possible descendants would indicate a common descent with Humphrey and John's descendants. Nevertheless, it is not impossible for Frances to have been a daughter, but again of which woman is not clear. For onomastic reasons, Richard's three daughters Maude, Ellen, and Dorothy are all likely to have been Alice's daughters. Concerning Maude, in particular, there is absolutely no doubt, as both of the two early 17th century pedigree's show her as Alice's daughter by Richard. Concerning Joan St. John, it is now clear that she died by mid-1514, and it would seem that Richard was looking for a wife who would take care of his children for. Their ages could have been as young as two years of age for the youngest to no more than ten years of age for the oldest. My estimated birth year for Alice is around 1490, making her at the time of her marriage already past suitable marriage age. Richard Cotton would have been born around 1475, thus contemporary with his first wife, but not his second. I will continue to do more research. I have uncovered several leads which once I can examine pdf's of the original documents will allow me to clarify things further. Incidentally, both of Richard's wives have a very interesting ancestry. On Joan's side, her mother Alice Langham had Sir John Hawkwood (a late 14th century English national military hero) as an ancestor. On Alice's side, her great grandmother was the sister of the first earl of Derby and thus the sister-in-law of Margaret Beaufort, the mother of Henry VII by Edmund Tudor, the earl of Richmond.
> > > > Best wishes,
> > > > Hikaru
> > > Thanks for this Hikaru.
> > >
> > > Please keep up the good work with more PDF's! You seem to have a rare skill of replacing guesses with real dates.
> > >
> > > I am aware of the John Savage marriage to Katherine Stanley, and what happened to both families after 1485.
> > >
> > > What I have not found yet is a son Gilbert of this marriage, a Gilbert who married ?? and was the father of Alice Savage who married Richard Cotton. Also so many children have been credited to John and Katherine, that I am seeking a definitive list of these children. What would you advise here?
> > >
> > > Again thank you
> > >
> > > Colin
> > Dear Colin,
> >
> > Record of a court case involving the estate of Gilbert Savage can be found on the National Archives Discovery search engine. Two references to him can be found in Visitation in connection with a daughter of his marrying into the Hyde family. Chronologically, the only Sir John Savage that fits as the father of Gilbert is the Sir John Savage who was the son of yet another Sir John Savage and his wife Katherine Stanley, the sister of the first earl of Derby. This younger Sir John Savage was born in the 1440s and old enough to have had a younger son Gilbert who was the father of Alice (born around 1490 to 1495), the second wife of Richard Cotton. Because the younger Sir John Savage died before his father, he had no property of his own at the time of his death, meaning that no inquisition post mortem was made. His death was sudden, meaning also that there was no will, thus meaning he left behind no means of identifying his children, something which must be done indirectly. There was fortunately at one time in the past a brass in the church of Hampstall Ridware (it no longer exists in a readable form) which describes Alice as the daughter of Gilbert Savage the son of Sir John Savage. The only Sir John Savage for whom all the surviving clues fit is the the younger Sir John Savage just mentioned.
> thank you for this.
> I am interested in the connection to the Hyde family. If this was John Hyde 1493-1526, there is a marriage to Catherine Savage born c 1506 in 1527. This Catherine was the daughter of Gilbert Savage born c1460s. Gilbert was the son of Sir Robert Savage 1449-1493, of the Ards in Ulster. Robert was married to Helen Dethick, and was the son of Sir John Savage and Katherine Stanley.
>
> All of the information above is secondary but at least it mentions Gilbert and relates him to the Savage main line. The brass you mention is still accurate as there was more than one John Savage. It would have been nice to find a reference to Catherine's sister Alice to complete the picture.
>
> As an aside, Gilbert had a sister Cecilia, born in Ulster, who married John MacDonald, of Dunnyveg (1435-1499) a descendent of the Lords of the Isles
Concerning the brass, you will have trouble finding the reference using Google Books, as the book it is in is a snippet view book and a small percentage of the lower parts of some of the concerned letters are cut. I didn't pay attention about the search terms I used or copy the URL, because I had already read it in 2007-2008 when I was on a one-year sabbatical in London to do research at the library of the Institute of History of the University of London. I did not pay much attention to this at the time, as it was not related in any obvious manner to the other research I was doing at the time. The book, as one would expect, is academic and generally not available. What was stated was that someone in the past had copied from a no-longer legible brass in the church at Hampstall Ridware the phrase that says that Alice was the daughter of Gilbert Savage, the son of Sir John Savage. I vaguely remember it was referenced from an early Staffordshire historian (possibly Stebbing Shaw), coming from a discussion of the church of Hampstal Ridware, so I am not sure. Sir Gilbert Talbot was a close associate of both the elder and younger Sir John Savages, as well as the Stanleys. The record in the National Archives referring to him states that Katherine Hyde's father Gilbert was of Dewsbury which is in Yorkshire, though he could have had property in more than one location and Alice is not specifically mentioned in either the National Archive's record or in the visitations. The message of the Hyde marriage is in two of the visitations, perhaps Cheshire or Lancashire, anyway, one or more of the western counties. Perhaps, we are dealing with two cousins or perhaps one of our sources got something wrong. Whatever, things are taking an interesting turn and I hope you are able to work it out. Mistakes can persist very stubbornly. Concerning Richard and John Cotton's ancestry, I have uncovered several that were made over 400 years ago by very highly respected researchers. They persist unquestioned, even though proof of error is available, because the people making the original mistakes were so reputable. By the way, I have been doing research recently on Joan St. John's female line (Alice Langham) ancestry. I have found no connection with royalty, but many other interesting connections in British Society during the 15th and 16th centuries. Judging from this, it is absolutely clear that Thomas St. John had to have come from an established British upperclass family, especially as he brought no money into a marriage to a wealthy heiress, closely related to other upperclass families of importance in the London, Essex, Suffolk, Norfolk area. The same applies to the second marriage of Alice to John Cotton. He brought absolutely no money into the marriage, but he brought a wealth of very important, mainly West Country, social connections, including a distant royal descent from his (and Richard's) mother Joan Fitzherbert.