> > > > > On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 12:04:35 AM UTC+9, Colin Piper wrote:
> > > > > > In Search of Thomas St John, of Charing Kent. Related names Cotton, Savage, Langham, Arundell
>
> > > > > > • Edward Hasted’s History and Topographicial Survey of the County of Kent, Vol 7(1798) describes “…..Burleigh or Burley Manor,( Charing) came into the possession of the St Johns who bore for their arms Argent, a mullet sable on a chief gules, three mullets pierced of the first. At length Avis daughter of William St John of Charing carried it in marriage to Humphry Barrey esq who afterwards dwelt here, and was from hence styled Barrey, of Charing. But it does not seem to have remained long in this name, for it soon afterwards came into the possession of a family, called Dallingridge, of eminent note in Hampshire, whose arms were Argent, a cross engailed, gules; and Sir Edward Dallingridge by fine levied in the first year of King Richard II (1377), passed it away to Roger Dallingridge and Alice his wife, and they not long afterwards conveyed it by sale to Thomas Brockhull of Calehill….”. Few dates and vague. But see later on
> > > > > > • Edward St John of Barlavington (who was also the Edward St John of Kent covered later on) is shown as a debtor on 21/10/1390 with a debt proven against William Best, the elder, of Charing in Kent

> > > > > > During 2015 a long discussion evolved in Soc Gen Med about the five Sir Edward St Johns who were alive at the same time during the 1300’s and included the mention of a Sir Edward St John, “of Kent” died before 1398, who married Alice (died 1422) the widow of Roger Dallingridge. Alice was said to own many manors in Kent. My research showed that Burleigh Manor, Charing was one of those and transferred to Roger and Alice Dallingridge in 1377. Roger Dallingridge died in 1380, and Alice subsequently married Sir Edward St John. I am taking Edward Hasted’s words “not long afterwards” meaning as before Roger Dallingridge’s death, so the manor of Burleigh almost made it back to the St Johns before being sold off again. But Edward St John did have dealings in Charing as judged by the debitor note above.
> > > > > > If “my” Thomas St John of Charing had any connection with Burleigh Manor (even if he did not own it) there is some circumstantial evidence that Thomas was somehow descended from the marriage of Sir Edward St John of Kent and Alice. But I just needed to find the descent to Thomas.
> > > > > > Alas, I have not found this link. Edward St John (-1398) and Alice had a son William (-1437) who had a son John, who had a daughter Elizabeth, so no obvious way through to the dates for Thomas St John. If anyone has better information than this, then please let me know.

Returning to Edward St. John and Alice, Rokesley, I'm not convinced that she was the widow of Roger Dallingridge. I seem to remember this was speculated by Patricia Junkin based on a 1405 plea in which Alice, widow of Edward is administering the goods of Roger Dalyngrygge. I haven't been able to find this. Can anyone point me to it? And any information on the Rokesleys would help. Acc. to the imp of William St John, her son, "John de Rokesle, knight, was seised in fee of the under-mentioned manor [Shelve], and granted it by charter to Robert de Rokesle, his son, to hold to him and the heirs of his body. Robert died seised of the manor in fee tail, and after his death the manor descended to Richard, his son and heir. Richard died seised of the manor in fee tail, and after his death the manor descended to Alice, his daughter and heir, who married a certain Edward Seynt John. " I can't sort out quite where these Rokesleys fit in. Presumably they are related to the Agnes Rokesely who married Sir Thomas Poynings?

As the Edward who married Alice inherited Barlavington, he must have been grandson of Eve Dawtry, presumably by either her son John or Edward. But I can't find much data. If Alice is the one associated with Thomas Bromflete, does that suggest Edward was the brother of Bromflete's wife Margaret, dau. of Edward and Anastasia?

"In 1398 Alice widow of Edward Seynt Johan knight, Thomas Brouneflete, William Wateresfeld chaplain, and Robert Lovell, acting as executors of the will of Edward Saint Johan knight, sued Thomas atte Rede in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of £39.

1403 To the sheriff of Kent.... if taken at suit of Alice who was wife of Edward Seynt Johan knight, Thomas Bromflete and William Wateresfelde chaplain, executors of the said Edward, for render of 20£."

If anyone has anything on this line, I would much appreciate seeing it.

On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 9:08:31 AM UTC-6, mk wrote:
> > > > > > On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 12:04:35 AM UTC+9, Colin Piper wrote:
> > > > > > > In Search of Thomas St John, of Charing Kent. Related names Cotton, Savage, Langham, Arundell
> >
> > > > > > > • Edward Hasted’s History and Topographicial Survey of the County of Kent, Vol 7(1798) describes “…..Burleigh or Burley Manor,( Charing) came into the possession of the St Johns who bore for their arms Argent, a mullet sable on a chief gules, three mullets pierced of the first. At length Avis daughter of William St John of Charing carried it in marriage to Humphry Barrey esq who afterwards dwelt here, and was from hence styled Barrey, of Charing. But it does not seem to have remained long in this name, for it soon afterwards came into the possession of a family, called Dallingridge, of eminent note in Hampshire, whose arms were Argent, a cross engailed, gules; and Sir Edward Dallingridge by fine levied in the first year of King Richard II (1377), passed it away to Roger Dallingridge and Alice his wife, and they not long afterwards conveyed it by sale to Thomas Brockhull of Calehill….”. Few dates and vague. But see later on
> > > > > > > • Edward St John of Barlavington (who was also the Edward St John of Kent covered later on) is shown as a debtor on 21/10/1390 with a debt proven against William Best, the elder, of Charing in Kent
> > > > > > > During 2015 a long discussion evolved in Soc Gen Med about the five Sir Edward St Johns who were alive at the same time during the 1300’s and included the mention of a Sir Edward St John, “of Kent” died before 1398, who married Alice (died 1422) the widow of Roger Dallingridge. Alice was said to own many manors in Kent. My research showed that Burleigh Manor, Charing was one of those and transferred to Roger and Alice Dallingridge in 1377. Roger Dallingridge died in 1380, and Alice subsequently married Sir Edward St John. I am taking Edward Hasted’s words “not long afterwards” meaning as before Roger Dallingridge’s death, so the manor of Burleigh almost made it back to the St Johns before being sold off again. But Edward St John did have dealings in Charing as judged by the debitor note above.
> > > > > > > If “my” Thomas St John of Charing had any connection with Burleigh Manor (even if he did not own it) there is some circumstantial evidence that Thomas was somehow descended from the marriage of Sir Edward St John of Kent and Alice. But I just needed to find the descent to Thomas.
> > > > > > > Alas, I have not found this link. Edward St John (-1398) and Alice had a son William (-1437) who had a son John, who had a daughter Elizabeth, so no obvious way through to the dates for Thomas St John. If anyone has better information than this, then please let me know.
> Returning to Edward St. John and Alice, Rokesley, I'm not convinced that she was the widow of Roger Dallingridge. I seem to remember this was speculated by Patricia Junkin based on a 1405 plea in which Alice, widow of Edward is administering the goods of Roger Dalyngrygge. I haven't been able to find this. Can anyone point me to it? And any information on the Rokesleys would help. Acc. to the imp of William St John, her son, "John de Rokesle, knight, was seised in fee of the under-mentioned manor [Shelve], and granted it by charter to Robert de Rokesle, his son, to hold to him and the heirs of his body. Robert died seised of the manor in fee tail, and after his death the manor descended to Richard, his son and heir. Richard died seised of the manor in fee tail, and after his death the manor descended to Alice, his daughter and heir, who married a certain Edward Seynt John. " I can't sort out quite where these Rokesleys fit in. Presumably they are related to the Agnes Rokesely who married Sir Thomas Poynings?
>
> As the Edward who married Alice inherited Barlavington, he must have been grandson of Eve Dawtry, presumably by either her son John or Edward. But I can't find much data. If Alice is the one associated with Thomas Bromflete, does that suggest Edward was the brother of Bromflete's wife Margaret, dau. of Edward and Anastasia?
>
> "In 1398 Alice widow of Edward Seynt Johan knight, Thomas Brouneflete, William Wateresfeld chaplain, and Robert Lovell, acting as executors of the will of Edward Saint Johan knight, sued Thomas atte Rede in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of £39.
>
> 1403 To the sheriff of Kent.... if taken at suit of Alice who was wife of Edward Seynt Johan knight, Thomas Bromflete and William Wateresfelde chaplain, executors of the said Edward, for render of 20£."
>
> If anyone has anything on this line, I would much appreciate seeing it.

https://www.google.hn/books/edition/Magna_Carta_Ancestry_A_Study_in_Colonial/8JcbV309c5UC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=barlavington+st+John&pg=RA3-PA96&printsec=frontcover

On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 8:25:10 AM UTC-4, Will Johnson wrote:

> > If anyone has anything on this line, I would much appreciate seeing it.
> https://www.google.hn/books/edition/Magna_Carta_Ancestry_A_Study_in_Colonial/8JcbV309c5UC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=barlavington+st+John&pg=RA3-PA96&printsec=frontcover

Anastasia was the sister-in-law of the person most likely to be the father of the Edward who married Alice Rokesley and inherited the manors of Barlavington which had belonged to Eve Dawtry.

North Marden Pages 108-110
A History of the County of Sussex: Volume 4, the Rape of Chichester. Originally published by Victoria County History, London, 1953.
North Marden may have formed part of the 5 fees held by Hugh de Falaise in the time of Henry I, as fee here was held by Hugh's granddaughter Agnes widow of Geoffrey son of Azo, and after her death it was successfully claimed by her nieces Margaret, Denise, and Florence, daughters of Richard Murdac, against William Aguillon, who represented Hugh de Falaise through his other daughter. William called to warrant Alfred de Lincoln, who was perhaps his guardian or trustee. Margaret married Nicholas de Lymesy and in 1235 William Aguillon claimed the fee against her and her son Walter, to whom he eventually, in 1241, made over his rights.Walter was succeeded by Nicholas de Lymesy, probably his son, who in 1246 made an agreement with William Dawtrey that they should present alternately to the church of North Marden. Presumably the fee had passed into the hands of William Dawtrey, as his granddaughter Eve inherited 2½ fees in Barlavington, Marden, and elsewhere. She married three times: first Roger de Shelvestrode, who held the fees in 1302, then William Paynel, the tenant in 1314, and finally Edward St. John. The manor of Barlavington and lands in North Marden were among the estates settled on Edward and Eve and her heirs in 1318, and at her death in 1354 they passed to her son John St. John. The subsequent history of this mesne lordship is obscure. In 1428 a ½ fee in North Marden was said to be held by the Prior of Maiden Bradley and William St. John and to have formerly been held by Roger de Lynche, but Roger's connexion with the fee is otherwise unrecorded. William St. John left a daughter Elizabeth, who married Henry Dyke, and their coheirs were their granddaughters, Constance wife of John Goring and Eleanor wife of William Dering. The advowson (q.v.) descended to them, but no more is recorded of the lordship.