The Grinches described in the linked article specialize in decorations that
have what they deem to be a religious motif.

I do believe, by the way, that Kwanzaa
decorations would pass muster for any school or school board that follows their example.
So would rainbow flags...

https://washingtonstand.com/news/bah-humbug-pa-school-districts-warns-bus-drivers-against-christmas-decorations
Excerpts:
On Friday, just over a week before Christmas, the Wallingford-Swarthmore school district in Delaware County,
Pennsylvania, issued a memo to school bus drivers saying, “If you have decorated your bus with anything specific
to the Christmas Holiday or any other decorations relating to a specific religion, please remove them immediately.”

The memo concludes, “In addition, employees are instructed not to wear clothing related to Christmas
or any other religious holiday.” According to the memo, school district leadership
“has been receiving complaints from parents concerning District employees displaying ‘Christmas’ themed decorations
and/or wearing clothing of the same nature.”
A note adds that the policy is not specific to school bus drivers but “APPLIES TO ALL DISTRICT EMPLOYEES.”

....

Joseph Backholm, FRC’s senior fellow for Biblical Worldview, told TWS that the ban on Christmas decorations
is “an issue of people in leadership who always follow rather than lead.”
He said, “The school district apparently received a complaint from someone that a bus driver
was spreading too much Christmas cheer, and instead of telling that parent
they encourage every bus driver to be as festive as possible,
they decided it was their job to protect the emotionally fragile.”
Although “Christmas” is named explicitly in the memo, Backholm noted that the inclusion
of “any other religious holiday” was “certainly done on the advice of their lawyers,
because it would be illegal to just ban Christmas displays and clothing.”

....

According to Fox 29 Philadelphia, the school district clarified Friday night that their intent was “not clear”
and reversed the ban on holiday decorations and clothing,
emphasizing instead a need for bus drivers to create “an inclusive environment.”

“The parents who want to remove the decorations should spend a week on the bus to see what kind of environment
their children and the bus drivers experience daily,” Kilgannon said.
“Parents know that in many school districts bus discipline is nonexistent and enforcing any behavioral norm
is often punished — by just this kind of complaint. Taxpayers on the other hand
who have no kids in school have no idea that this kind of situation is funded by their generosity.”

[end of excerpts]

Peter Nyikos

On 12/19/23 1:50 PM, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
> The Grinches described in the linked article specialize in decorations that
> have what they deem to be a religious motif.
>
> I do believe, by the way, that Kwanzaa
> decorations would pass muster for any school or school board that follows their example.
> So would rainbow flags...
>
> https://washingtonstand.com/news/bah-humbug-pa-school-districts-warns-bus-drivers-against-christmas-decorations
> Excerpts:
> On Friday, just over a week before Christmas, the Wallingford-Swarthmore school district in Delaware County,
> Pennsylvania, issued a memo to school bus drivers saying, “If you have decorated your bus with anything specific
> to the Christmas Holiday or any other decorations relating to a specific religion, please remove them immediately.”
>
> The memo concludes, “In addition, employees are instructed not to wear clothing related to Christmas
> or any other religious holiday.” According to the memo, school district leadership
> “has been receiving complaints from parents concerning District employees displaying ‘Christmas’ themed decorations
> and/or wearing clothing of the same nature.”
> A note adds that the policy is not specific to school bus drivers but “APPLIES TO ALL DISTRICT EMPLOYEES.”
>
> ...
>
> Joseph Backholm, FRC’s senior fellow for Biblical Worldview, told TWS that the ban on Christmas decorations
> is “an issue of people in leadership who always follow rather than lead.”
> He said, “The school district apparently received a complaint from someone that a bus driver
> was spreading too much Christmas cheer, and instead of telling that parent
> they encourage every bus driver to be as festive as possible,
> they decided it was their job to protect the emotionally fragile.”
> Although “Christmas” is named explicitly in the memo, Backholm noted that the inclusion
> of “any other religious holiday” was “certainly done on the advice of their lawyers,
> because it would be illegal to just ban Christmas displays and clothing.”
>
> ...
>
> According to Fox 29 Philadelphia, the school district clarified Friday night that their intent was “not clear”
> and reversed the ban on holiday decorations and clothing,
> emphasizing instead a need for bus drivers to create “an inclusive environment.”
>
> “The parents who want to remove the decorations should spend a week on the bus to see what kind of environment
> their children and the bus drivers experience daily,” Kilgannon said.
> “Parents know that in many school districts bus discipline is nonexistent and enforcing any behavioral norm
> is often punished — by just this kind of complaint. Taxpayers on the other hand
> who have no kids in school have no idea that this kind of situation is funded by their generosity.”
>
> [end of excerpts]
>
>
> Peter Nyikos
>
Does that include Klingons?

On 12/19/23 1:50 PM, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
> The Grinches described in the linked article specialize in decorations that
> have what they deem to be a religious motif.
>
> I do believe, by the way, that Kwanzaa
> decorations would pass muster for any school or school board that follows their example.
> So would rainbow flags...
>
> https://washingtonstand.com/news/bah-humbug-pa-school-districts-warns-bus-drivers-against-christmas-decorations
> Excerpts:
> On Friday, just over a week before Christmas, the Wallingford-Swarthmore school district in Delaware County,
> Pennsylvania, issued a memo to school bus drivers saying, “If you have decorated your bus with anything specific
> to the Christmas Holiday or any other decorations relating to a specific religion, please remove them immediately.”
>
> The memo concludes, “In addition, employees are instructed not to wear clothing related to Christmas
> or any other religious holiday.” According to the memo, school district leadership
> “has been receiving complaints from parents concerning District employees displaying ‘Christmas’ themed decorations
> and/or wearing clothing of the same nature.”
> A note adds that the policy is not specific to school bus drivers but “APPLIES TO ALL DISTRICT EMPLOYEES.”
>
> ...
>
> Joseph Backholm, FRC’s senior fellow for Biblical Worldview, told TWS that the ban on Christmas decorations
> is “an issue of people in leadership who always follow rather than lead.”
> He said, “The school district apparently received a complaint from someone that a bus driver
> was spreading too much Christmas cheer, and instead of telling that parent
> they encourage every bus driver to be as festive as possible,
> they decided it was their job to protect the emotionally fragile.”
> Although “Christmas” is named explicitly in the memo, Backholm noted that the inclusion
> of “any other religious holiday” was “certainly done on the advice of their lawyers,
> because it would be illegal to just ban Christmas displays and clothing.”
>
> ...
>
> According to Fox 29 Philadelphia, the school district clarified Friday night that their intent was “not clear”
> and reversed the ban on holiday decorations and clothing,
> emphasizing instead a need for bus drivers to create “an inclusive environment.”
>
> “The parents who want to remove the decorations should spend a week on the bus to see what kind of environment
> their children and the bus drivers experience daily,” Kilgannon said.
> “Parents know that in many school districts bus discipline is nonexistent and enforcing any behavioral norm
> is often punished — by just this kind of complaint. Taxpayers on the other hand
> who have no kids in school have no idea that this kind of situation is funded by their generosity.”
>
> [end of excerpts]

Sounds like the War on Christmas waged by Republicans a few years ago to
make people angry enough to send them money.

--
Mark Isaak
"Wisdom begins when you discover the difference between 'That
doesn't make sense' and 'I don't understand.'" - Mary Doria Russell

On Tue, 19 Dec 2023 13:54:33 -0800, erik simpson
<eastside.erik@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 12/19/23 1:50 PM, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
>> The Grinches described in the linked article specialize in decorations that
>> have what they deem to be a religious motif.
>>
>> I do believe, by the way, that Kwanzaa
>> decorations would pass muster for any school or school board that follows their example.
>> So would rainbow flags...
>>
>> https://washingtonstand.com/news/bah-humbug-pa-school-districts-warns-bus-drivers-against-christmas-decorations
>> Excerpts:
>> On Friday, just over a week before Christmas, the Wallingford-Swarthmore school district in Delaware County,
>> Pennsylvania, issued a memo to school bus drivers saying, “If you have decorated your bus with anything specific
>> to the Christmas Holiday or any other decorations relating to a specific religion, please remove them immediately.”
>>
>> The memo concludes, “In addition, employees are instructed not to wear clothing related to Christmas
>> or any other religious holiday.” According to the memo, school district leadership
>> “has been receiving complaints from parents concerning District employees displaying ‘Christmas’ themed decorations
>> and/or wearing clothing of the same nature.”
>> A note adds that the policy is not specific to school bus drivers but “APPLIES TO ALL DISTRICT EMPLOYEES.”
>>
>> ...
>>
>> Joseph Backholm, FRC’s senior fellow for Biblical Worldview, told TWS that the ban on Christmas decorations
>> is “an issue of people in leadership who always follow rather than lead.”
>> He said, “The school district apparently received a complaint from someone that a bus driver
>> was spreading too much Christmas cheer, and instead of telling that parent
>> they encourage every bus driver to be as festive as possible,
>> they decided it was their job to protect the emotionally fragile.”
>> Although “Christmas” is named explicitly in the memo, Backholm noted that the inclusion
>> of “any other religious holiday” was “certainly done on the advice of their lawyers,
>> because it would be illegal to just ban Christmas displays and clothing.”
>>
>> ...
>>
>> According to Fox 29 Philadelphia, the school district clarified Friday night that their intent was “not clear”
>> and reversed the ban on holiday decorations and clothing,
>> emphasizing instead a need for bus drivers to create “an inclusive environment.”
>>
>> “The parents who want to remove the decorations should spend a week on the bus to see what kind of environment
>> their children and the bus drivers experience daily,” Kilgannon said.
>> “Parents know that in many school districts bus discipline is nonexistent and enforcing any behavioral norm
>> is often punished — by just this kind of complaint. Taxpayers on the other hand
>> who have no kids in school have no idea that this kind of situation is funded by their generosity.”
>>
>> [end of excerpts]
>>
>>
>> Peter Nyikos
>>
>Does that include Klingons?

Only if they're from Uranus.

--
To know less than we don't know is the nature of most knowledge

On Tuesday, December 19, 2023 at 8:37:14 PM UTC-5, Mark Isaak wrote:
> On 12/19/23 1:50 PM, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
> > The Grinches described in the linked article specialize in decorations that
> > have what they deem to be a religious motif.
> >
> > I do believe, by the way, that Kwanzaa
> > decorations would pass muster for any school or school board that follows their example.
> > So would rainbow flags...
> >
> > https://washingtonstand.com/news/bah-humbug-pa-school-districts-warns-bus-drivers-against-christmas-decorations
> > Excerpts:
> > On Friday, just over a week before Christmas, the Wallingford-Swarthmore school district in Delaware County,
> > Pennsylvania, issued a memo to school bus drivers saying, “If you have decorated your bus with anything specific
> > to the Christmas Holiday or any other decorations relating to a specific religion, please remove them immediately.”
> >
> > The memo concludes, “In addition, employees are instructed not to wear clothing related to Christmas
> > or any other religious holiday.” According to the memo, school district leadership
> > “has been receiving complaints from parents concerning District employees displaying ‘Christmas’ themed decorations
> > and/or wearing clothing of the same nature.”
> > A note adds that the policy is not specific to school bus drivers but “APPLIES TO ALL DISTRICT EMPLOYEES.”
> >
> > ...
> >
> > Joseph Backholm, FRC’s senior fellow for Biblical Worldview, told TWS that the ban on Christmas decorations
> > is “an issue of people in leadership who always follow rather than lead.”
> > He said, “The school district apparently received a complaint from someone that a bus driver
> > was spreading too much Christmas cheer, and instead of telling that parent
> > they encourage every bus driver to be as festive as possible,
> > they decided it was their job to protect the emotionally fragile.”
> > Although “Christmas” is named explicitly in the memo, Backholm noted that the inclusion
> > of “any other religious holiday” was “certainly done on the advice of their lawyers,
> > because it would be illegal to just ban Christmas displays and clothing..”
> >
> > ...
> >
> > According to Fox 29 Philadelphia, the school district clarified Friday night that their intent was “not clear”
> > and reversed the ban on holiday decorations and clothing,
> > emphasizing instead a need for bus drivers to create “an inclusive environment.”
> >
> > “The parents who want to remove the decorations should spend a week on the bus to see what kind of environment
> > their children and the bus drivers experience daily,” Kilgannon said.
> > “Parents know that in many school districts bus discipline is nonexistent and enforcing any behavioral norm
> > is often punished — by just this kind of complaint. Taxpayers on the other hand
> > who have no kids in school have no idea that this kind of situation is funded by their generosity.”
> >
> > [end of excerpts]

I'm a bit puzzled by your comment to all this, Mark.

> Sounds like the War on Christmas waged by Republicans a few years ago to
> make people angry enough to send them money.

For one thing, didn't you mean "claimed to exist" rather than "waged"?

For another, did you not notice how the school district rescinded their policy?
Or do you wish they had NOT rescinded their policy?

For yet another: you seem to be big on the 2-party system. Don't you think libertarians care about
freedom of religious expression?

I'm not happy about the 2-party system at all.

Just one reminder for now, because I want to get an early start tomorrow.

On the day after the 2016 election, I made the following "joke" in talk.origins:

"I have some good news and some bad news.

"The good news is that Clinton lost.

"The bad news is that Trump won."

Surprisingly enough, Bob Casanova felt the same way.

Peter Nyikos

On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 2:47:15 PM UTC+11, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 19, 2023 at 8:37:14 PM UTC-5, Mark Isaak wrote:
> > On 12/19/23 1:50 PM, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > The Grinches described in the linked article specialize in decorations that
> > > have what they deem to be a religious motif.
> > >
> > > I do believe, by the way, that Kwanzaa
> > > decorations would pass muster for any school or school board that follows their example.
> > > So would rainbow flags...
> > >
> > > https://washingtonstand.com/news/bah-humbug-pa-school-districts-warns-bus-drivers-against-christmas-decorations
> > > Excerpts:
> > > On Friday, just over a week before Christmas, the Wallingford-Swarthmore school district in Delaware County,
> > > Pennsylvania, issued a memo to school bus drivers saying, “If you have decorated your bus with anything specific
> > > to the Christmas Holiday or any other decorations relating to a specific religion, please remove them immediately.”
> > >
> > > The memo concludes, “In addition, employees are instructed not to wear clothing related to Christmas
> > > or any other religious holiday.” According to the memo, school district leadership
> > > “has been receiving complaints from parents concerning District employees displaying ‘Christmas’ themed decorations
> > > and/or wearing clothing of the same nature.”
> > > A note adds that the policy is not specific to school bus drivers but “APPLIES TO ALL DISTRICT EMPLOYEES.”
> > >
> > > ...
> > >
> > > Joseph Backholm, FRC’s senior fellow for Biblical Worldview, told TWS that the ban on Christmas decorations
> > > is “an issue of people in leadership who always follow rather than lead.”
> > > He said, “The school district apparently received a complaint from someone that a bus driver
> > > was spreading too much Christmas cheer, and instead of telling that parent
> > > they encourage every bus driver to be as festive as possible,
> > > they decided it was their job to protect the emotionally fragile.”
> > > Although “Christmas” is named explicitly in the memo, Backholm noted that the inclusion
> > > of “any other religious holiday” was “certainly done on the advice of their lawyers,
> > > because it would be illegal to just ban Christmas displays and clothing.”
> > >
> > > ...
> > >
> > > According to Fox 29 Philadelphia, the school district clarified Friday night that their intent was “not clear”
> > > and reversed the ban on holiday decorations and clothing,
> > > emphasizing instead a need for bus drivers to create “an inclusive environment.”
> > >
> > > “The parents who want to remove the decorations should spend a week on the bus to see what kind of environment
> > > their children and the bus drivers experience daily,” Kilgannon said.
> > > “Parents know that in many school districts bus discipline is nonexistent and enforcing any behavioral norm
> > > is often punished — by just this kind of complaint. Taxpayers on the other hand
> > > who have no kids in school have no idea that this kind of situation is funded by their generosity.”
> > >
> > > [end of excerpts]
> I'm a bit puzzled by your comment to all this, Mark.
> > Sounds like the War on Christmas waged by Republicans a few years ago to
> > make people angry enough to send them money.
> For one thing, didn't you mean "claimed to exist" rather than "waged"?
>
> For another, did you not notice how the school district rescinded their policy?
> Or do you wish they had NOT rescinded their policy?
>
> For yet another: you seem to be big on the 2-party system. Don't you think libertarians care about
> freedom of religious expression?
>
>
> I'm not happy about the 2-party system at all.
>
> Just one reminder for now, because I want to get an early start tomorrow.
>
> On the day after the 2016 election, I made the following "joke" in talk.origins:
>
> "I have some good news and some bad news.
>
> "The good news is that Clinton lost.
>
> "The bad news is that Trump won."
>
> Surprisingly enough, Bob Casanova felt the same way.
>
>
> Peter Nyikos

Here's an Australian window in US politics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planet_America

A combination of news, gossip, and insightful analysis held together with humour and bemusement.

On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 4:22:14 PM UTC+11, MarkE wrote:
> On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 2:47:15 PM UTC+11, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, December 19, 2023 at 8:37:14 PM UTC-5, Mark Isaak wrote:
> > > On 12/19/23 1:50 PM, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > The Grinches described in the linked article specialize in decorations that
> > > > have what they deem to be a religious motif.
> > > >
> > > > I do believe, by the way, that Kwanzaa
> > > > decorations would pass muster for any school or school board that follows their example.
> > > > So would rainbow flags...
> > > >
> > > > https://washingtonstand.com/news/bah-humbug-pa-school-districts-warns-bus-drivers-against-christmas-decorations
> > > > Excerpts:
> > > > On Friday, just over a week before Christmas, the Wallingford-Swarthmore school district in Delaware County,
> > > > Pennsylvania, issued a memo to school bus drivers saying, “If you have decorated your bus with anything specific
> > > > to the Christmas Holiday or any other decorations relating to a specific religion, please remove them immediately.”
> > > >
> > > > The memo concludes, “In addition, employees are instructed not to wear clothing related to Christmas
> > > > or any other religious holiday.” According to the memo, school district leadership
> > > > “has been receiving complaints from parents concerning District employees displaying ‘Christmas’ themed decorations
> > > > and/or wearing clothing of the same nature.”
> > > > A note adds that the policy is not specific to school bus drivers but “APPLIES TO ALL DISTRICT EMPLOYEES.”
> > > >
> > > > ...
> > > >
> > > > Joseph Backholm, FRC’s senior fellow for Biblical Worldview, told TWS that the ban on Christmas decorations
> > > > is “an issue of people in leadership who always follow rather than lead.”
> > > > He said, “The school district apparently received a complaint from someone that a bus driver
> > > > was spreading too much Christmas cheer, and instead of telling that parent
> > > > they encourage every bus driver to be as festive as possible,
> > > > they decided it was their job to protect the emotionally fragile.”
> > > > Although “Christmas” is named explicitly in the memo, Backholm noted that the inclusion
> > > > of “any other religious holiday” was “certainly done on the advice of their lawyers,
> > > > because it would be illegal to just ban Christmas displays and clothing.”
> > > >
> > > > ...
> > > >
> > > > According to Fox 29 Philadelphia, the school district clarified Friday night that their intent was “not clear”
> > > > and reversed the ban on holiday decorations and clothing,
> > > > emphasizing instead a need for bus drivers to create “an inclusive environment.”
> > > >
> > > > “The parents who want to remove the decorations should spend a week on the bus to see what kind of environment
> > > > their children and the bus drivers experience daily,” Kilgannon said.
> > > > “Parents know that in many school districts bus discipline is nonexistent and enforcing any behavioral norm
> > > > is often punished — by just this kind of complaint. Taxpayers on the other hand
> > > > who have no kids in school have no idea that this kind of situation is funded by their generosity.”
> > > >
> > > > [end of excerpts]
> > I'm a bit puzzled by your comment to all this, Mark.
> > > Sounds like the War on Christmas waged by Republicans a few years ago to
> > > make people angry enough to send them money.
> > For one thing, didn't you mean "claimed to exist" rather than "waged"?
> >
> > For another, did you not notice how the school district rescinded their policy?
> > Or do you wish they had NOT rescinded their policy?
> >
> > For yet another: you seem to be big on the 2-party system. Don't you think libertarians care about
> > freedom of religious expression?
> >
> >
> > I'm not happy about the 2-party system at all.
> >
> > Just one reminder for now, because I want to get an early start tomorrow.
> >
> > On the day after the 2016 election, I made the following "joke" in talk..origins:
> >
> > "I have some good news and some bad news.
> >
> > "The good news is that Clinton lost.
> >
> > "The bad news is that Trump won."
> >
> > Surprisingly enough, Bob Casanova felt the same way.
> >
> >
> > Peter Nyikos
> Here's an Australian window in US politics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planet_America
>
> A combination of news, gossip, and insightful analysis held together with humour and bemusement.

Actually, are people outside Australia able to view this? https://www.abc.net.au/news/programs/planet-america

On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 12:22:14 AM UTC-5, MarkE wrote:
> On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 2:47:15 PM UTC+11, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, December 19, 2023 at 8:37:14 PM UTC-5, Mark Isaak wrote:
> > > On 12/19/23 1:50 PM, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > The Grinches described in the linked article specialize in ["stealing"] decorations that
> > > > have what they deem to [have] a religious motif.
> > > >
> > > > I do believe, by the way, that Kwanzaa
> > > > decorations would pass muster for any school or school board that follows their example.
> > > > So would rainbow flags...
> > > >
> > > > https://washingtonstand.com/news/bah-humbug-pa-school-districts-warns-bus-drivers-against-christmas-decorations
> > > > Excerpts:
> > > > On Friday, just over a week before Christmas, the Wallingford-Swarthmore school district in Delaware County,
> > > > Pennsylvania, issued a memo to school bus drivers saying, “If you have decorated your bus with anything specific
> > > > to the Christmas Holiday or any other decorations relating to a specific religion, please remove them immediately.”
> > > >
> > > > The memo concludes, “In addition, employees are instructed not to wear clothing related to Christmas
> > > > or any other religious holiday.” According to the memo, school district leadership
> > > > “has been receiving complaints from parents concerning District employees displaying ‘Christmas’ themed decorations
> > > > and/or wearing clothing of the same nature.”
> > > > A note adds that the policy is not specific to school bus drivers but “APPLIES TO ALL DISTRICT EMPLOYEES.”
> > > >
> > > > ...
> > > >
> > > > Joseph Backholm, FRC’s senior fellow for Biblical Worldview, told TWS that the ban on Christmas decorations
> > > > is “an issue of people in leadership who always follow rather than lead.”
> > > > He said, “The school district apparently received a complaint from someone that a bus driver
> > > > was spreading too much Christmas cheer, and instead of telling that parent
> > > > they encourage every bus driver to be as festive as possible,
> > > > they decided it was their job to protect the emotionally fragile.”
> > > > Although “Christmas” is named explicitly in the memo, Backholm noted that the inclusion
> > > > of “any other religious holiday” was “certainly done on the advice of their lawyers,
> > > > because it would be illegal to just ban Christmas displays and clothing.”
> > > >
> > > > ...
> > > >
> > > > According to Fox 29 Philadelphia, the school district clarified Friday night that their intent was “not clear”
> > > > and reversed the ban on holiday decorations and clothing,
> > > > emphasizing instead a need for bus drivers to create “an inclusive environment.”
> > > >
> > > > “The parents who want to remove the decorations should spend a week on the bus to see what kind of environment
> > > > their children and the bus drivers experience daily,” Kilgannon said.
> > > > “Parents know that in many school districts bus discipline is nonexistent and enforcing any behavioral norm
> > > > is often punished — by just this kind of complaint. Taxpayers on the other hand
> > > > who have no kids in school have no idea that this kind of situation is funded by their generosity.”
> > > >
> > > > [end of excerpts]
> > I'm a bit puzzled by your comment to all this, Mark.
> > > Sounds like the War on Christmas waged by Republicans a few years ago to
> > > make people angry enough to send them money.
> > For one thing, didn't you mean "claimed to exist" rather than "waged"?

Or did you mean "imagined"?

Will you leave the crickets chirping again?

> > For another, did you not notice how the school district rescinded their policy?

<crickets>

> > Or do you wish they had NOT rescinded their policy?

<crickets>
> > For yet another: you seem to be big on the 2-party system. Don't you think libertarians care about
> > freedom of religious expression?

<crickets>
> >
> > I'm not happy about the 2-party system at all.
> >
> > Just one reminder for now, because I want to get an early start tomorrow.
> >
> > On the day after the 2016 election, I made the following "joke" in talk..origins:
> >
> > "I have some good news and some bad news.
> >
> > "The good news is that Clinton lost.
> >
> > "The bad news is that Trump won."
> >
> > Surprisingly enough, Bob Casanova felt the same way.
> >
> >
> > Peter Nyikos

A non sequitur by you follows.

> Here's an Australian window in US politics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planet_America
>
> A combination of news, gossip, and insightful analysis held together with humour and bemusement.

Did you find anything in the links that would give us Yanks a window
into the program? Enough at least to confirm the accuracy of the claims "insightful"
and "humour"?

The wiki article itself does not. MarkE, of all people, did give us some small clue
by linking us to synopses, but still inadequate to confirm the accuracy of those claims.

Peter Nyikos

On 12/20/23 7:44 PM, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 19, 2023 at 8:37:14 PM UTC-5, Mark Isaak wrote:
>> On 12/19/23 1:50 PM, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> The Grinches described in the linked article specialize in decorations that
>>> have what they deem to be a religious motif.
>>>
>>> I do believe, by the way, that Kwanzaa
>>> decorations would pass muster for any school or school board that follows their example.
>>> So would rainbow flags...
>>>
>>> https://washingtonstand.com/news/bah-humbug-pa-school-districts-warns-bus-drivers-against-christmas-decorations
>>> Excerpts:
>>> On Friday, just over a week before Christmas, the Wallingford-Swarthmore school district in Delaware County,
>>> Pennsylvania, issued a memo to school bus drivers saying, “If you have decorated your bus with anything specific
>>> to the Christmas Holiday or any other decorations relating to a specific religion, please remove them immediately.”
>>>
>>> The memo concludes, “In addition, employees are instructed not to wear clothing related to Christmas
>>> or any other religious holiday.” According to the memo, school district leadership
>>> “has been receiving complaints from parents concerning District employees displaying ‘Christmas’ themed decorations
>>> and/or wearing clothing of the same nature.”
>>> A note adds that the policy is not specific to school bus drivers but “APPLIES TO ALL DISTRICT EMPLOYEES.”
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>> Joseph Backholm, FRC’s senior fellow for Biblical Worldview, told TWS that the ban on Christmas decorations
>>> is “an issue of people in leadership who always follow rather than lead.”
>>> He said, “The school district apparently received a complaint from someone that a bus driver
>>> was spreading too much Christmas cheer, and instead of telling that parent
>>> they encourage every bus driver to be as festive as possible,
>>> they decided it was their job to protect the emotionally fragile.”
>>> Although “Christmas” is named explicitly in the memo, Backholm noted that the inclusion
>>> of “any other religious holiday” was “certainly done on the advice of their lawyers,
>>> because it would be illegal to just ban Christmas displays and clothing.”
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>> According to Fox 29 Philadelphia, the school district clarified Friday night that their intent was “not clear”
>>> and reversed the ban on holiday decorations and clothing,
>>> emphasizing instead a need for bus drivers to create “an inclusive environment.”
>>>
>>> “The parents who want to remove the decorations should spend a week on the bus to see what kind of environment
>>> their children and the bus drivers experience daily,” Kilgannon said.
>>> “Parents know that in many school districts bus discipline is nonexistent and enforcing any behavioral norm
>>> is often punished — by just this kind of complaint. Taxpayers on the other hand
>>> who have no kids in school have no idea that this kind of situation is funded by their generosity.”
>>>
>>> [end of excerpts]
>
> I'm a bit puzzled by your comment to all this, Mark.
>
>> Sounds like the War on Christmas waged by Republicans a few years ago to
>> make people angry enough to send them money.
>
> For one thing, didn't you mean "claimed to exist" rather than "waged"?

No. The Republicans created the war out of nothing and were the only
significant actors in it.

> For another, did you not notice how the school district rescinded their policy?
> Or do you wish they had NOT rescinded their policy?

Only after I made my (admittedly hasty) remark.

> For yet another: you seem to be big on the 2-party system. Don't you think libertarians care about
> freedom of religious expression?
>
> I'm not happy about the 2-party system at all.

Nor am I. But third parties with any significant power cannot survive
without major constitutional changes, so we are stuck with two.

Of course, third parties *can* exist by taking over one of the two major
ones. We have seen that happen as Trump mostly eliminated the
Republican Party and replaced it with a fascist party (and no doubt will
complete the job if elected).

> Just one reminder for now, because I want to get an early start tomorrow.
>
> On the day after the 2016 election, I made the following "joke" in talk.origins:
>
> "I have some good news and some bad news.
>
> "The good news is that Clinton lost.
>
> "The bad news is that Trump won."

The ballot for the next election may say "Biden" and "Trump", but I
think it is really about whether American will be led by Harris or Putin.

--
Mark Isaak
"Wisdom begins when you discover the difference between 'That
doesn't make sense' and 'I don't understand.'" - Mary Doria Russell

On 12/21/23 7:40 PM, Mark Isaak wrote:
> On 12/20/23 7:44 PM, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, December 19, 2023 at 8:37:14 PM UTC-5, Mark Isaak wrote:
>>> On 12/19/23 1:50 PM, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> The Grinches described in the linked article specialize in
>>>> decorations that
>>>> have what they deem to be a religious motif.
>>>>
>>>> I do believe, by the way, that Kwanzaa
>>>> decorations would pass muster for any school or school board that
>>>> follows their example.
>>>> So would rainbow flags...
>>>>
>>>> https://washingtonstand.com/news/bah-humbug-pa-school-districts-warns-bus-drivers-against-christmas-decorations
>>>> Excerpts:
>>>> On Friday, just over a week before Christmas, the
>>>> Wallingford-Swarthmore school district in Delaware County,
>>>> Pennsylvania, issued a memo to school bus drivers saying, “If you
>>>> have decorated your bus with anything specific
>>>> to the Christmas Holiday or any other decorations relating to a
>>>> specific religion, please remove them immediately.”
>>>>
>>>> The memo concludes, “In addition, employees are instructed not to
>>>> wear clothing related to Christmas
>>>> or any other religious holiday.” According to the memo, school
>>>> district leadership
>>>> “has been receiving complaints from parents concerning District
>>>> employees displaying ‘Christmas’ themed decorations
>>>> and/or wearing clothing of the same nature.”
>>>> A note adds that the policy is not specific to school bus drivers
>>>> but “APPLIES TO ALL DISTRICT EMPLOYEES.”
>>>>
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> Joseph Backholm, FRC’s senior fellow for Biblical Worldview, told
>>>> TWS that the ban on Christmas decorations
>>>> is “an issue of people in leadership who always follow rather than
>>>> lead.”
>>>> He said, “The school district apparently received a complaint from
>>>> someone that a bus driver
>>>> was spreading too much Christmas cheer, and instead of telling that
>>>> parent
>>>> they encourage every bus driver to be as festive as possible,
>>>> they decided it was their job to protect the emotionally fragile.”
>>>> Although “Christmas” is named explicitly in the memo, Backholm noted
>>>> that the inclusion
>>>> of “any other religious holiday” was “certainly done on the advice
>>>> of their lawyers,
>>>> because it would be illegal to just ban Christmas displays and
>>>> clothing.”
>>>>
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> According to Fox 29 Philadelphia, the school district clarified
>>>> Friday night that their intent was “not clear”
>>>> and reversed the ban on holiday decorations and clothing,
>>>> emphasizing instead a need for bus drivers to create “an inclusive
>>>> environment.”
>>>>
>>>> “The parents who want to remove the decorations should spend a week
>>>> on the bus to see what kind of environment
>>>> their children and the bus drivers experience daily,” Kilgannon said.
>>>> “Parents know that in many school districts bus discipline is
>>>> nonexistent and enforcing any behavioral norm
>>>> is often punished — by just this kind of complaint. Taxpayers on the
>>>> other hand
>>>> who have no kids in school have no idea that this kind of situation
>>>> is funded by their generosity.”
>>>>
>>>> [end of excerpts]
>>
>> I'm a bit puzzled by your comment to all this, Mark.
>>
>>> Sounds like the War on Christmas waged by Republicans a few years ago to
>>> make people angry enough to send them money.
>>
>> For one thing, didn't you mean "claimed to exist" rather than "waged"?
>
> No.  The Republicans created the war out of nothing and were the only
> significant actors in it.
>
>> For another, did you not notice how the school district rescinded
>> their policy?
>> Or do you wish they had NOT rescinded their policy?
>
> Only after I made my (admittedly hasty) remark.
>
>> For yet another: you seem to be big on the 2-party system. Don't you
>> think libertarians care about
>> freedom of religious expression?
>>
>> I'm not happy about the 2-party system at all.
>
> Nor am I. But third parties with any significant power cannot survive
> without major constitutional changes, so we are stuck with two.
>
> Of course, third parties *can* exist by taking over one of the two major
> ones.  We have seen that happen as Trump mostly eliminated the
> Republican Party and replaced it with a fascist party (and no doubt will
> complete the job if elected).
>
>> Just one reminder for now, because I want to get an early start tomorrow.
>>
>> On the day after the 2016 election, I made the following "joke" in
>> talk.origins:
>>
>> "I have some good news and some bad news.
>>
>> "The good news is that Clinton lost.
>>
>> "The bad news is that Trump won."
>
> The ballot for the next election may say "Biden" and "Trump", but I
> think it is really about whether American will be led by Harris or Putin.
>
The TRump-Russia connection has been pretty throughly discredited. IMO
there won't be any good news coming out of the next election. Least bad
is the best we can hope for.

On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 11:02:16 PM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:
> On 12/21/23 7:40 PM, Mark Isaak wrote:
> > On 12/20/23 7:44 PM, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, December 19, 2023 at 8:37:14 PM UTC-5, Mark Isaak wrote:
> >>> On 12/19/23 1:50 PM, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>> The Grinches described in the linked article specialize in
> >>>> decorations that
> >>>> have what they deem to be a religious motif.
> >>>>
> >>>> I do believe, by the way, that Kwanzaa
> >>>> decorations would pass muster for any school or school board that
> >>>> follows their example.
> >>>> So would rainbow flags...
> >>>>
> >>>> https://washingtonstand.com/news/bah-humbug-pa-school-districts-warns-bus-drivers-against-christmas-decorations
> >>>> Excerpts:
> >>>> On Friday, just over a week before Christmas, the
> >>>> Wallingford-Swarthmore school district in Delaware County,
> >>>> Pennsylvania, issued a memo to school bus drivers saying, “If you
> >>>> have decorated your bus with anything specific
> >>>> to the Christmas Holiday or any other decorations relating to a
> >>>> specific religion, please remove them immediately.”
> >>>>
> >>>> The memo concludes, “In addition, employees are instructed not to
> >>>> wear clothing related to Christmas
> >>>> or any other religious holiday.” According to the memo, school
> >>>> district leadership
> >>>> “has been receiving complaints from parents concerning District
> >>>> employees displaying ‘Christmas’ themed decorations
> >>>> and/or wearing clothing of the same nature.”
> >>>> A note adds that the policy is not specific to school bus drivers
> >>>> but “APPLIES TO ALL DISTRICT EMPLOYEES.”
> >>>>
> >>>> ...
> >>>>
> >>>> Joseph Backholm, FRC’s senior fellow for Biblical Worldview, told
> >>>> TWS that the ban on Christmas decorations
> >>>> is “an issue of people in leadership who always follow rather than
> >>>> lead.”
> >>>> He said, “The school district apparently received a complaint from
> >>>> someone that a bus driver
> >>>> was spreading too much Christmas cheer, and instead of telling that
> >>>> parent
> >>>> they encourage every bus driver to be as festive as possible,
> >>>> they decided it was their job to protect the emotionally fragile.”
> >>>> Although “Christmas” is named explicitly in the memo, Backholm noted
> >>>> that the inclusion
> >>>> of “any other religious holiday” was “certainly done on the advice
> >>>> of their lawyers,
> >>>> because it would be illegal to just ban Christmas displays and
> >>>> clothing.”
> >>>>
> >>>> ...
> >>>>
> >>>> According to Fox 29 Philadelphia, the school district clarified
> >>>> Friday night that their intent was “not clear”
> >>>> and reversed the ban on holiday decorations and clothing,
> >>>> emphasizing instead a need for bus drivers to create “an inclusive
> >>>> environment.”
> >>>>
> >>>> “The parents who want to remove the decorations should spend a week
> >>>> on the bus to see what kind of environment
> >>>> their children and the bus drivers experience daily,” Kilgannon said.
> >>>> “Parents know that in many school districts bus discipline is
> >>>> nonexistent and enforcing any behavioral norm
> >>>> is often punished — by just this kind of complaint. Taxpayers on the
> >>>> other hand
> >>>> who have no kids in school have no idea that this kind of situation
> >>>> is funded by their generosity.”
> >>>>
> >>>> [end of excerpts]
> >>
> >> I'm a bit puzzled by your comment to all this, Mark.
> >>
> >>> Sounds like the War on Christmas waged by Republicans a few years ago to
> >>> make people angry enough to send them money.
> >>
> >> For one thing, didn't you mean "claimed to exist" rather than "waged"?
> >
> > No. The Republicans created the war out of nothing and were the only
> > significant actors in it.
> >
> >> For another, did you not notice how the school district rescinded
> >> their policy?
> >> Or do you wish they had NOT rescinded their policy?
> >
> > Only after I made my (admittedly hasty) remark.
> >
> >> For yet another: you seem to be big on the 2-party system. Don't you
> >> think libertarians care about
> >> freedom of religious expression?
> >>
> >> I'm not happy about the 2-party system at all.
> >
> > Nor am I. But third parties with any significant power cannot survive
> > without major constitutional changes, so we are stuck with two.
> >
> > Of course, third parties *can* exist by taking over one of the two major
> > ones. We have seen that happen as Trump mostly eliminated the
> > Republican Party and replaced it with a fascist party (and no doubt will
> > complete the job if elected).
> >
> >> Just one reminder for now, because I want to get an early start tomorrow.
> >>
> >> On the day after the 2016 election, I made the following "joke" in
> >> talk.origins:
> >>
> >> "I have some good news and some bad news.
> >>
> >> "The good news is that Clinton lost.
> >>
> >> "The bad news is that Trump won."
> >
> > The ballot for the next election may say "Biden" and "Trump", but I
> > think it is really about whether American will be led by Harris or Putin.
> >
> The TRump-Russia connection has been pretty throughly discredited.
Not so sure about that. I agree there's no evidence that got on the phone and conspired, but Putin clearly ordered a disinformation campaign designed to help Trump, even if it didn't make a definitive difference. Trump admires Putin, like he admires authoritarians generally, and Putin would benefit enormously if Trump got elected again and cut off military aid to Ukraine

>IMO
> there won't be any good news coming out of the next election. Least bad
> is the best we can hope for.

On 12/22/23 3:44 AM, broger...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 11:02:16 PM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:
>> On 12/21/23 7:40 PM, Mark Isaak wrote:
>>> On 12/20/23 7:44 PM, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, December 19, 2023 at 8:37:14 PM UTC-5, Mark Isaak wrote:
>>>>> On 12/19/23 1:50 PM, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> The Grinches described in the linked article specialize in
>>>>>> decorations that
>>>>>> have what they deem to be a religious motif.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I do believe, by the way, that Kwanzaa
>>>>>> decorations would pass muster for any school or school board that
>>>>>> follows their example.
>>>>>> So would rainbow flags...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://washingtonstand.com/news/bah-humbug-pa-school-districts-warns-bus-drivers-against-christmas-decorations
>>>>>> Excerpts:
>>>>>> On Friday, just over a week before Christmas, the
>>>>>> Wallingford-Swarthmore school district in Delaware County,
>>>>>> Pennsylvania, issued a memo to school bus drivers saying, “If you
>>>>>> have decorated your bus with anything specific
>>>>>> to the Christmas Holiday or any other decorations relating to a
>>>>>> specific religion, please remove them immediately.”
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The memo concludes, “In addition, employees are instructed not to
>>>>>> wear clothing related to Christmas
>>>>>> or any other religious holiday.” According to the memo, school
>>>>>> district leadership
>>>>>> “has been receiving complaints from parents concerning District
>>>>>> employees displaying ‘Christmas’ themed decorations
>>>>>> and/or wearing clothing of the same nature.”
>>>>>> A note adds that the policy is not specific to school bus drivers
>>>>>> but “APPLIES TO ALL DISTRICT EMPLOYEES.”
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Joseph Backholm, FRC’s senior fellow for Biblical Worldview, told
>>>>>> TWS that the ban on Christmas decorations
>>>>>> is “an issue of people in leadership who always follow rather than
>>>>>> lead.”
>>>>>> He said, “The school district apparently received a complaint from
>>>>>> someone that a bus driver
>>>>>> was spreading too much Christmas cheer, and instead of telling that
>>>>>> parent
>>>>>> they encourage every bus driver to be as festive as possible,
>>>>>> they decided it was their job to protect the emotionally fragile.”
>>>>>> Although “Christmas” is named explicitly in the memo, Backholm noted
>>>>>> that the inclusion
>>>>>> of “any other religious holiday” was “certainly done on the advice
>>>>>> of their lawyers,
>>>>>> because it would be illegal to just ban Christmas displays and
>>>>>> clothing.”
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> According to Fox 29 Philadelphia, the school district clarified
>>>>>> Friday night that their intent was “not clear”
>>>>>> and reversed the ban on holiday decorations and clothing,
>>>>>> emphasizing instead a need for bus drivers to create “an inclusive
>>>>>> environment.”
>>>>>>
>>>>>> “The parents who want to remove the decorations should spend a week
>>>>>> on the bus to see what kind of environment
>>>>>> their children and the bus drivers experience daily,” Kilgannon said.
>>>>>> “Parents know that in many school districts bus discipline is
>>>>>> nonexistent and enforcing any behavioral norm
>>>>>> is often punished — by just this kind of complaint. Taxpayers on the
>>>>>> other hand
>>>>>> who have no kids in school have no idea that this kind of situation
>>>>>> is funded by their generosity.”
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [end of excerpts]
>>>>
>>>> I'm a bit puzzled by your comment to all this, Mark.
>>>>
>>>>> Sounds like the War on Christmas waged by Republicans a few years ago to
>>>>> make people angry enough to send them money.
>>>>
>>>> For one thing, didn't you mean "claimed to exist" rather than "waged"?
>>>
>>> No. The Republicans created the war out of nothing and were the only
>>> significant actors in it.
>>>
>>>> For another, did you not notice how the school district rescinded
>>>> their policy?
>>>> Or do you wish they had NOT rescinded their policy?
>>>
>>> Only after I made my (admittedly hasty) remark.
>>>
>>>> For yet another: you seem to be big on the 2-party system. Don't you
>>>> think libertarians care about
>>>> freedom of religious expression?
>>>>
>>>> I'm not happy about the 2-party system at all.
>>>
>>> Nor am I. But third parties with any significant power cannot survive
>>> without major constitutional changes, so we are stuck with two.
>>>
>>> Of course, third parties *can* exist by taking over one of the two major
>>> ones. We have seen that happen as Trump mostly eliminated the
>>> Republican Party and replaced it with a fascist party (and no doubt will
>>> complete the job if elected).
>>>
>>>> Just one reminder for now, because I want to get an early start tomorrow.
>>>>
>>>> On the day after the 2016 election, I made the following "joke" in
>>>> talk.origins:
>>>>
>>>> "I have some good news and some bad news.
>>>>
>>>> "The good news is that Clinton lost.
>>>>
>>>> "The bad news is that Trump won."
>>>
>>> The ballot for the next election may say "Biden" and "Trump", but I
>>> think it is really about whether American will be led by Harris or Putin.
>>>
>> The TRump-Russia connection has been pretty throughly discredited.
> Not so sure about that. I agree there's no evidence that got on the phone and conspired, but Putin clearly ordered a disinformation campaign designed to help Trump, even if it didn't make a definitive difference. Trump admires Putin, like he admires authoritarians generally, and Putin would benefit enormously if Trump got elected again and cut off military aid to Ukraine
>
>> IMO
>> there won't be any good news coming out of the next election. Least bad
>> is the best we can hope for.
>
That may be. In even event, this is seriously off-topic. If you're
familiar with the old undercomic "Odds Bodkins". Fred Bird announced
"politics is poopadoodle". I couldn't agree more.

On 12/21/23 7:57 PM, erik simpson wrote:
> On 12/21/23 7:40 PM, Mark Isaak wrote:
>> On 12/20/23 7:44 PM, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, December 19, 2023 at 8:37:14 PM UTC-5, Mark Isaak wrote:
>>>> On 12/19/23 1:50 PM, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> The Grinches described in the linked article specialize in
>>>>> decorations that
>>>>> have what they deem to be a religious motif.
>>>>>
>>>>> I do believe, by the way, that Kwanzaa
>>>>> decorations would pass muster for any school or school board that
>>>>> follows their example.
>>>>> So would rainbow flags...
>>>>>
>>>>> https://washingtonstand.com/news/bah-humbug-pa-school-districts-warns-bus-drivers-against-christmas-decorations
>>>>> Excerpts:
>>>>> On Friday, just over a week before Christmas, the
>>>>> Wallingford-Swarthmore school district in Delaware County,
>>>>> Pennsylvania, issued a memo to school bus drivers saying, “If you
>>>>> have decorated your bus with anything specific
>>>>> to the Christmas Holiday or any other decorations relating to a
>>>>> specific religion, please remove them immediately.”
>>>>>
>>>>> The memo concludes, “In addition, employees are instructed not to
>>>>> wear clothing related to Christmas
>>>>> or any other religious holiday.” According to the memo, school
>>>>> district leadership
>>>>> “has been receiving complaints from parents concerning District
>>>>> employees displaying ‘Christmas’ themed decorations
>>>>> and/or wearing clothing of the same nature.”
>>>>> A note adds that the policy is not specific to school bus drivers
>>>>> but “APPLIES TO ALL DISTRICT EMPLOYEES.”
>>>>>
>>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>> Joseph Backholm, FRC’s senior fellow for Biblical Worldview, told
>>>>> TWS that the ban on Christmas decorations
>>>>> is “an issue of people in leadership who always follow rather than
>>>>> lead.”
>>>>> He said, “The school district apparently received a complaint from
>>>>> someone that a bus driver
>>>>> was spreading too much Christmas cheer, and instead of telling that
>>>>> parent
>>>>> they encourage every bus driver to be as festive as possible,
>>>>> they decided it was their job to protect the emotionally fragile.”
>>>>> Although “Christmas” is named explicitly in the memo, Backholm
>>>>> noted that the inclusion
>>>>> of “any other religious holiday” was “certainly done on the advice
>>>>> of their lawyers,
>>>>> because it would be illegal to just ban Christmas displays and
>>>>> clothing.”
>>>>>
>>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>> According to Fox 29 Philadelphia, the school district clarified
>>>>> Friday night that their intent was “not clear”
>>>>> and reversed the ban on holiday decorations and clothing,
>>>>> emphasizing instead a need for bus drivers to create “an inclusive
>>>>> environment.”
>>>>>
>>>>> “The parents who want to remove the decorations should spend a week
>>>>> on the bus to see what kind of environment
>>>>> their children and the bus drivers experience daily,” Kilgannon said.
>>>>> “Parents know that in many school districts bus discipline is
>>>>> nonexistent and enforcing any behavioral norm
>>>>> is often punished — by just this kind of complaint. Taxpayers on
>>>>> the other hand
>>>>> who have no kids in school have no idea that this kind of situation
>>>>> is funded by their generosity.”
>>>>>
>>>>> [end of excerpts]
>>>
>>> I'm a bit puzzled by your comment to all this, Mark.
>>>
>>>> Sounds like the War on Christmas waged by Republicans a few years
>>>> ago to
>>>> make people angry enough to send them money.
>>>
>>> For one thing, didn't you mean "claimed to exist" rather than "waged"?
>>
>> No.  The Republicans created the war out of nothing and were the only
>> significant actors in it.
>>
>>> For another, did you not notice how the school district rescinded
>>> their policy?
>>> Or do you wish they had NOT rescinded their policy?
>>
>> Only after I made my (admittedly hasty) remark.
>>
>>> For yet another: you seem to be big on the 2-party system. Don't you
>>> think libertarians care about
>>> freedom of religious expression?
>>>
>>> I'm not happy about the 2-party system at all.
>>
>> Nor am I. But third parties with any significant power cannot survive
>> without major constitutional changes, so we are stuck with two.
>>
>> Of course, third parties *can* exist by taking over one of the two
>> major ones.  We have seen that happen as Trump mostly eliminated the
>> Republican Party and replaced it with a fascist party (and no doubt
>> will complete the job if elected).
>>
>>> Just one reminder for now, because I want to get an early start
>>> tomorrow.
>>>
>>> On the day after the 2016 election, I made the following "joke" in
>>> talk.origins:
>>>
>>> "I have some good news and some bad news.
>>>
>>> "The good news is that Clinton lost.
>>>
>>> "The bad news is that Trump won."
>>
>> The ballot for the next election may say "Biden" and "Trump", but I
>> think it is really about whether American will be led by Harris or Putin.
>>
> The TRump-Russia connection has been pretty throughly discredited.

I think it remains true that Putin is perhaps the only person that Trump
looks up to.

> IMO there won't be any good news coming out of the next election.  Least bad
> is the best we can hope for.

Agreed.

--
Mark Isaak
"Wisdom begins when you discover the difference between 'That
doesn't make sense' and 'I don't understand.'" - Mary Doria Russell

On Thu, 21 Dec 2023 19:40:00 -0800, Mark Isaak
<specimenNOSPAM@curioustaxon.omy.net> wrote:

[...]

>The ballot for the next election may say "Biden" and "Trump", but I
>think it is really about whether American will be led by Harris or Putin.

Like many other external onlookers, I find myself totally bewildered
as to why the Democrats seem willing to hand the next presidency back
to Trump. Are they really so feeble that nobody is willing to tell an
81-year-old guy whom the public has already judged too old, "Fair
play, Joe, you've done your bit, now it's time to let someone else
have a go "?

On 12/22/23 9:53 AM, Martin Harran wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Dec 2023 19:40:00 -0800, Mark Isaak
> <specimenNOSPAM@curioustaxon.omy.net> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> The ballot for the next election may say "Biden" and "Trump", but I
>> think it is really about whether American will be led by Harris or Putin.
>
> Like many other external onlookers, I find myself totally bewildered
> as to why the Democrats seem willing to hand the next presidency back
> to Trump. Are they really so feeble that nobody is willing to tell an
> 81-year-old guy whom the public has already judged too old, "Fair
> play, Joe, you've done your bit, now it's time to let someone else
> have a go "?

Other Democrats have their own problems, either being perceived as way
too liberal or not having any name recognition.

Besides, Biden is only two years older than Trump and is probably in
better physical shape. If the Biden campaign is halfway competent (a
big if), age will not be a deciding issue.

--
Mark Isaak
"Wisdom begins when you discover the difference between 'That
doesn't make sense' and 'I don't understand.'" - Mary Doria Russell

On Fri, 22 Dec 2023 14:31:11 -0800, Mark Isaak
<specimenNOSPAM@curioustaxon.omy.net> wrote:

>On 12/22/23 9:53 AM, Martin Harran wrote:
>> On Thu, 21 Dec 2023 19:40:00 -0800, Mark Isaak
>> <specimenNOSPAM@curioustaxon.omy.net> wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>> The ballot for the next election may say "Biden" and "Trump", but I
>>> think it is really about whether American will be led by Harris or Putin.
>>
>> Like many other external onlookers, I find myself totally bewildered
>> as to why the Democrats seem willing to hand the next presidency back
>> to Trump. Are they really so feeble that nobody is willing to tell an
>> 81-year-old guy whom the public has already judged too old, "Fair
>> play, Joe, you've done your bit, now it's time to let someone else
>> have a go "?
>
>Other Democrats have their own problems, either being perceived as way
>too liberal or not having any name recognition.

In other words, they are too feeble.

>
>Besides, Biden is only two years older than Trump and is probably in
>better physical shape. If the Biden campaign is halfway competent

They seem a long way away from even *half* competent.

>big if), age will not be a deciding issue.

I don't know what news outlets you follow but the ones I read are
showing Trump now ahead of Biden in opinion polls with Biden's age a
major factor, if not the most important one.

On Saturday, December 23, 2023 at 5:32:18 AM UTC-5, Martin Harran wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Dec 2023 14:31:11 -0800, Mark Isaak
> <specime...@curioustaxon.omy.net> wrote:
>
> >On 12/22/23 9:53 AM, Martin Harran wrote:
> >> On Thu, 21 Dec 2023 19:40:00 -0800, Mark Isaak
> >> <specime...@curioustaxon.omy.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> [...]
> >>
> >>> The ballot for the next election may say "Biden" and "Trump", but I
> >>> think it is really about whether American will be led by Harris or Putin.
> >>
> >> Like many other external onlookers, I find myself totally bewildered
> >> as to why the Democrats seem willing to hand the next presidency back
> >> to Trump. Are they really so feeble that nobody is willing to tell an
> >> 81-year-old guy whom the public has already judged too old, "Fair
> >> play, Joe, you've done your bit, now it's time to let someone else
> >> have a go "?
> >
> >Other Democrats have their own problems, either being perceived as way
> >too liberal or not having any name recognition.
> In other words, they are too feeble.
> >
> >Besides, Biden is only two years older than Trump and is probably in
> >better physical shape. If the Biden campaign is halfway competent
> They seem a long way away from even *half* competent.
> >big if), age will not be a deciding issue.
> I don't know what news outlets you follow but the ones I read are
> showing Trump now ahead of Biden in opinion polls with Biden's age a
> major factor, if not the most important one.

The biggest assets the Democrats have are (1) Trump and (2) the Dobbs decision ending the constitutional right to abortion. Whether they are enough to outweigh the anti-majoritarian features of the US political system and the White resentment of Trump's base remains to be seen. Polls right now don't tell you all that much.

broger...@gmail.com <brogers31751@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, December 23, 2023 at 5:32:18 AM UTC-5, Martin Harran wrote:
>> On Fri, 22 Dec 2023 14:31:11 -0800, Mark Isaak
>> <specime...@curioustaxon.omy.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 12/22/23 9:53 AM, Martin Harran wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 21 Dec 2023 19:40:00 -0800, Mark Isaak
>>>> <specime...@curioustaxon.omy.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>>> The ballot for the next election may say "Biden" and "Trump", but I
>>>>> think it is really about whether American will be led by Harris or Putin.
>>>>
>>>> Like many other external onlookers, I find myself totally bewildered
>>>> as to why the Democrats seem willing to hand the next presidency back
>>>> to Trump. Are they really so feeble that nobody is willing to tell an
>>>> 81-year-old guy whom the public has already judged too old, "Fair
>>>> play, Joe, you've done your bit, now it's time to let someone else
>>>> have a go "?
>>>
>>> Other Democrats have their own problems, either being perceived as way
>>> too liberal or not having any name recognition.
>> In other words, they are too feeble.
>>>
>>> Besides, Biden is only two years older than Trump and is probably in
>>> better physical shape. If the Biden campaign is halfway competent
>> They seem a long way away from even *half* competent.
>>> big if), age will not be a deciding issue.
>> I don't know what news outlets you follow but the ones I read are
>> showing Trump now ahead of Biden in opinion polls with Biden's age a
>> major factor, if not the most important one.
>
> The biggest assets the Democrats have are (1) Trump and (2) the Dobbs
> decision ending the constitutional right to abortion. Whether they are
> enough to outweigh the anti-majoritarian features of the US political
> system and the White resentment of Trump's base remains to be seen. Polls
> right now don't tell you all that much.
>
From reading stuff by Matthew MacWilliams and by Karen Stenner I am
dumfounded by the finding that a sizable (roughly 20-40%) chunk of
populations in the Western nations have deep set tendencies toward an
authoritarian mindset.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/11/capitol-insurrection-trump-authoritarianism-psychology-innate-fear-envy-change-diversity-populism/

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/09/23/trump-america-authoritarianism-420681

We cannot wish that tendency away. Trump taps into the well. Hopefully the
decision to keep Trump off the ballot in Colorado holds and inspires other
states.

On 23/12/2023 10:28, Martin Harran wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Dec 2023 14:31:11 -0800, Mark Isaak
> <specimenNOSPAM@curioustaxon.omy.net> wrote:
>
>> On 12/22/23 9:53 AM, Martin Harran wrote:
>>> On Thu, 21 Dec 2023 19:40:00 -0800, Mark Isaak
>>> <specimenNOSPAM@curioustaxon.omy.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>> The ballot for the next election may say "Biden" and "Trump", but I
>>>> think it is really about whether American will be led by Harris or Putin.
>>>
>>> Like many other external onlookers, I find myself totally bewildered
>>> as to why the Democrats seem willing to hand the next presidency back
>>> to Trump. Are they really so feeble that nobody is willing to tell an
>>> 81-year-old guy whom the public has already judged too old, "Fair
>>> play, Joe, you've done your bit, now it's time to let someone else
>>> have a go "?
>>
>> Other Democrats have their own problems, either being perceived as way
>> too liberal or not having any name recognition.
>
> In other words, they are too feeble.
>
>>
>> Besides, Biden is only two years older than Trump and is probably in
>> better physical shape. If the Biden campaign is halfway competent
>
> They seem a long way away from even *half* competent.
>
>> big if), age will not be a deciding issue.
>
> I don't know what news outlets you follow but the ones I read are
> showing Trump now ahead of Biden in opinion polls with Biden's age a
> major factor, if not the most important one.
>
People tell me that only Republicans* answer the telephone nowadays, so
the polls represent a biased sample of the electorate.

* some hyperbole present
--
alias Ernest Major

On Sat, 23 Dec 2023 04:08:40 -0800 (PST), "broger...@gmail.com"
<brogers31751@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, December 23, 2023 at 5:32:18?AM UTC-5, Martin Harran wrote:
>> On Fri, 22 Dec 2023 14:31:11 -0800, Mark Isaak
>> <specime...@curioustaxon.omy.net> wrote:
>>
>> >On 12/22/23 9:53 AM, Martin Harran wrote:
>> >> On Thu, 21 Dec 2023 19:40:00 -0800, Mark Isaak
>> >> <specime...@curioustaxon.omy.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> [...]
>> >>
>> >>> The ballot for the next election may say "Biden" and "Trump", but I
>> >>> think it is really about whether American will be led by Harris or Putin.
>> >>
>> >> Like many other external onlookers, I find myself totally bewildered
>> >> as to why the Democrats seem willing to hand the next presidency back
>> >> to Trump. Are they really so feeble that nobody is willing to tell an
>> >> 81-year-old guy whom the public has already judged too old, "Fair
>> >> play, Joe, you've done your bit, now it's time to let someone else
>> >> have a go "?
>> >
>> >Other Democrats have their own problems, either being perceived as way
>> >too liberal or not having any name recognition.
>> In other words, they are too feeble.
>> >
>> >Besides, Biden is only two years older than Trump and is probably in
>> >better physical shape. If the Biden campaign is halfway competent
>> They seem a long way away from even *half* competent.
>> >big if), age will not be a deciding issue.
>> I don't know what news outlets you follow but the ones I read are
>> showing Trump now ahead of Biden in opinion polls with Biden's age a
>> major factor, if not the most important one.
>
>The biggest assets the Democrats have are (1) Trump and (2) the Dobbs decision ending the constitutional right to abortion. Whether they are enough to outweigh the anti-majoritarian features of the US political system and the White resentment of Trump's base remains to be seen. Polls right now don't tell you all that much.

They tell you that Biden has gone from ahead to behind and no reason
to think it is going to get any better - those two factors have been
therefor a while. Liz Cheney reckons that the US is sleepwalking into
dictatorship - seems to me that the Democrats are the ones sleeping
most soundly.

On Saturday, December 23, 2023 at 12:32:17 PM UTC-5, Martin Harran wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Dec 2023 04:08:40 -0800 (PST), "broger...@gmail.com"
> <broger...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Saturday, December 23, 2023 at 5:32:18?AM UTC-5, Martin Harran wrote:
> >> On Fri, 22 Dec 2023 14:31:11 -0800, Mark Isaak
> >> <specime...@curioustaxon.omy.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On 12/22/23 9:53 AM, Martin Harran wrote:
> >> >> On Thu, 21 Dec 2023 19:40:00 -0800, Mark Isaak
> >> >> <specime...@curioustaxon.omy.net> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> [...]
> >> >>
> >> >>> The ballot for the next election may say "Biden" and "Trump", but I
> >> >>> think it is really about whether American will be led by Harris or Putin.
> >> >>
> >> >> Like many other external onlookers, I find myself totally bewildered
> >> >> as to why the Democrats seem willing to hand the next presidency back
> >> >> to Trump. Are they really so feeble that nobody is willing to tell an
> >> >> 81-year-old guy whom the public has already judged too old, "Fair
> >> >> play, Joe, you've done your bit, now it's time to let someone else
> >> >> have a go "?
> >> >
> >> >Other Democrats have their own problems, either being perceived as way
> >> >too liberal or not having any name recognition.
> >> In other words, they are too feeble.
> >> >
> >> >Besides, Biden is only two years older than Trump and is probably in
> >> >better physical shape. If the Biden campaign is halfway competent
> >> They seem a long way away from even *half* competent.
> >> >big if), age will not be a deciding issue.
> >> I don't know what news outlets you follow but the ones I read are
> >> showing Trump now ahead of Biden in opinion polls with Biden's age a
> >> major factor, if not the most important one.
> >
> >The biggest assets the Democrats have are (1) Trump and (2) the Dobbs decision ending the constitutional right to abortion. Whether they are enough to outweigh the anti-majoritarian features of the US political system and the White resentment of Trump's base remains to be seen. Polls right now don't tell you all that much.
> They tell you that Biden has gone from ahead to behind and no reason
> to think it is going to get any better - those two factors have been
> therefor a while. Liz Cheney reckons that the US is sleepwalking into
> dictatorship - seems to me that the Democrats are the ones sleeping
> most soundly.

The Democrats are full of too much angst to sleep soundly, at least the ones I know, and the ones I hear on the radio. If you have a suggestion for how to improve the odds of beating Trump, there's a ton of Democratic strategists who'd love to hear from you.

On Saturday, December 23, 2023 at 12:32:17 PM UTC-5, Martin Harran wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Dec 2023 04:08:40 -0800 (PST), "broger...@gmail.com"
> <broger...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Saturday, December 23, 2023 at 5:32:18?AM UTC-5, Martin Harran wrote:
> >> On Fri, 22 Dec 2023 14:31:11 -0800, Mark Isaak
> >> <specime...@curioustaxon.omy.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On 12/22/23 9:53 AM, Martin Harran wrote:
> >> >> On Thu, 21 Dec 2023 19:40:00 -0800, Mark Isaak
> >> >> <specime...@curioustaxon.omy.net> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> [...]
> >> >>
> >> >>> The ballot for the next election may say "Biden" and "Trump", but I
> >> >>> think it is really about whether American will be led by Harris or Putin.
> >> >>
> >> >> Like many other external onlookers, I find myself totally bewildered
> >> >> as to why the Democrats seem willing to hand the next presidency back
> >> >> to Trump. Are they really so feeble that nobody is willing to tell an
> >> >> 81-year-old guy whom the public has already judged too old, "Fair
> >> >> play, Joe, you've done your bit, now it's time to let someone else
> >> >> have a go "?
> >> >
> >> >Other Democrats have their own problems, either being perceived as way
> >> >too liberal or not having any name recognition.
> >> In other words, they are too feeble.
> >> >
> >> >Besides, Biden is only two years older than Trump and is probably in
> >> >better physical shape. If the Biden campaign is halfway competent
> >> They seem a long way away from even *half* competent.
> >> >big if), age will not be a deciding issue.
> >> I don't know what news outlets you follow but the ones I read are
> >> showing Trump now ahead of Biden in opinion polls with Biden's age a
> >> major factor, if not the most important one.
> >
> >The biggest assets the Democrats have are (1) Trump and (2) the Dobbs decision ending the constitutional right to abortion. Whether they are enough to outweigh the anti-majoritarian features of the US political system and the White resentment of Trump's base remains to be seen. Polls right now don't tell you all that much.
> They tell you that Biden has gone from ahead to behind and no reason
> to think it is going to get any better - those two factors have been
> therefor a while. Liz Cheney reckons that the US is sleepwalking into
> dictatorship - seems to me that the Democrats are the ones sleeping
> most soundly.
Liz Cheney is directing her remarks to fellow Republicans who privately think Trump is a disaster but are unwilling to buck him or his base and just think that somehow he'll just be a typical conservative president. She knows that the Democrats are already wide awake to the dangers.

On Sat, 23 Dec 2023 10:55:41 -0800 (PST), "broger...@gmail.com"
<brogers31751@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, December 23, 2023 at 12:32:17?PM UTC-5, Martin Harran wrote:
>> On Sat, 23 Dec 2023 04:08:40 -0800 (PST), "broger...@gmail.com"
>> <broger...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >On Saturday, December 23, 2023 at 5:32:18?AM UTC-5, Martin Harran wrote:
>> >> On Fri, 22 Dec 2023 14:31:11 -0800, Mark Isaak
>> >> <specime...@curioustaxon.omy.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On 12/22/23 9:53 AM, Martin Harran wrote:
>> >> >> On Thu, 21 Dec 2023 19:40:00 -0800, Mark Isaak
>> >> >> <specime...@curioustaxon.omy.net> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> [...]
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> The ballot for the next election may say "Biden" and "Trump", but I
>> >> >>> think it is really about whether American will be led by Harris or Putin.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Like many other external onlookers, I find myself totally bewildered
>> >> >> as to why the Democrats seem willing to hand the next presidency back
>> >> >> to Trump. Are they really so feeble that nobody is willing to tell an
>> >> >> 81-year-old guy whom the public has already judged too old, "Fair
>> >> >> play, Joe, you've done your bit, now it's time to let someone else
>> >> >> have a go "?
>> >> >
>> >> >Other Democrats have their own problems, either being perceived as way
>> >> >too liberal or not having any name recognition.
>> >> In other words, they are too feeble.
>> >> >
>> >> >Besides, Biden is only two years older than Trump and is probably in
>> >> >better physical shape. If the Biden campaign is halfway competent
>> >> They seem a long way away from even *half* competent.
>> >> >big if), age will not be a deciding issue.
>> >> I don't know what news outlets you follow but the ones I read are
>> >> showing Trump now ahead of Biden in opinion polls with Biden's age a
>> >> major factor, if not the most important one.
>> >
>> >The biggest assets the Democrats have are (1) Trump and (2) the Dobbs decision ending the constitutional right to abortion. Whether they are enough to outweigh the anti-majoritarian features of the US political system and the White resentment of Trump's base remains to be seen. Polls right now don't tell you all that much.
>> They tell you that Biden has gone from ahead to behind and no reason
>> to think it is going to get any better - those two factors have been
>> therefor a while. Liz Cheney reckons that the US is sleepwalking into
>> dictatorship - seems to me that the Democrats are the ones sleeping
>> most soundly.
>
>The Democrats are full of too much angst to sleep soundly, at least the ones I know, and the ones I hear on the radio. If you have a suggestion for how to improve the odds of beating Trump, there's a ton of Democratic strategists who'd love to hear from you.

ISTM that the strategy is very simple - retire Biden and put forward
somebody fresher. If they really don't have someone fresher, then they
might as well pack up their tents and go home.

On Sat, 23 Dec 2023 11:07:44 -0800 (PST), "broger...@gmail.com"
<brogers31751@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, December 23, 2023 at 12:32:17?PM UTC-5, Martin Harran wrote:
>> On Sat, 23 Dec 2023 04:08:40 -0800 (PST), "broger...@gmail.com"
>> <broger...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >On Saturday, December 23, 2023 at 5:32:18?AM UTC-5, Martin Harran wrote:
>> >> On Fri, 22 Dec 2023 14:31:11 -0800, Mark Isaak
>> >> <specime...@curioustaxon.omy.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On 12/22/23 9:53 AM, Martin Harran wrote:
>> >> >> On Thu, 21 Dec 2023 19:40:00 -0800, Mark Isaak
>> >> >> <specime...@curioustaxon.omy.net> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> [...]
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> The ballot for the next election may say "Biden" and "Trump", but I
>> >> >>> think it is really about whether American will be led by Harris or Putin.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Like many other external onlookers, I find myself totally bewildered
>> >> >> as to why the Democrats seem willing to hand the next presidency back
>> >> >> to Trump. Are they really so feeble that nobody is willing to tell an
>> >> >> 81-year-old guy whom the public has already judged too old, "Fair
>> >> >> play, Joe, you've done your bit, now it's time to let someone else
>> >> >> have a go "?
>> >> >
>> >> >Other Democrats have their own problems, either being perceived as way
>> >> >too liberal or not having any name recognition.
>> >> In other words, they are too feeble.
>> >> >
>> >> >Besides, Biden is only two years older than Trump and is probably in
>> >> >better physical shape. If the Biden campaign is halfway competent
>> >> They seem a long way away from even *half* competent.
>> >> >big if), age will not be a deciding issue.
>> >> I don't know what news outlets you follow but the ones I read are
>> >> showing Trump now ahead of Biden in opinion polls with Biden's age a
>> >> major factor, if not the most important one.
>> >
>> >The biggest assets the Democrats have are (1) Trump and (2) the Dobbs decision ending the constitutional right to abortion. Whether they are enough to outweigh the anti-majoritarian features of the US political system and the White resentment of Trump's base remains to be seen. Polls right now don't tell you all that much.
>> They tell you that Biden has gone from ahead to behind and no reason
>> to think it is going to get any better - those two factors have been
>> therefor a while. Liz Cheney reckons that the US is sleepwalking into
>> dictatorship - seems to me that the Democrats are the ones sleeping
>> most soundly.
>Liz Cheney is directing her remarks to fellow Republicans who privately think Trump is a disaster but are unwilling to buck him or his base and just think that somehow he'll just be a typical conservative president. She knows that the Democrats are already wide awake to the dangers.

Yet those Democrats continue to sleepwalk. Thinking your candidate
will win because the other candidate is even worse and nobody rational
should vote for them is a dreadful strategy, especially when that
other candidate has already shown the capacity to draw ~50% of the
vote..

On Saturday, December 23, 2023 at 3:32:17 PM UTC-5, Martin Harran wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Dec 2023 10:55:41 -0800 (PST), "broger...@gmail.com"
> <broger...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Saturday, December 23, 2023 at 12:32:17?PM UTC-5, Martin Harran wrote:
> >> On Sat, 23 Dec 2023 04:08:40 -0800 (PST), "broger...@gmail.com"
> >> <broger...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >On Saturday, December 23, 2023 at 5:32:18?AM UTC-5, Martin Harran wrote:
> >> >> On Fri, 22 Dec 2023 14:31:11 -0800, Mark Isaak
> >> >> <specime...@curioustaxon.omy.net> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >On 12/22/23 9:53 AM, Martin Harran wrote:
> >> >> >> On Thu, 21 Dec 2023 19:40:00 -0800, Mark Isaak
> >> >> >> <specime...@curioustaxon.omy.net> wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> [...]
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>> The ballot for the next election may say "Biden" and "Trump", but I
> >> >> >>> think it is really about whether American will be led by Harris or Putin.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Like many other external onlookers, I find myself totally bewildered
> >> >> >> as to why the Democrats seem willing to hand the next presidency back
> >> >> >> to Trump. Are they really so feeble that nobody is willing to tell an
> >> >> >> 81-year-old guy whom the public has already judged too old, "Fair
> >> >> >> play, Joe, you've done your bit, now it's time to let someone else
> >> >> >> have a go "?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Other Democrats have their own problems, either being perceived as way
> >> >> >too liberal or not having any name recognition.
> >> >> In other words, they are too feeble.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Besides, Biden is only two years older than Trump and is probably in
> >> >> >better physical shape. If the Biden campaign is halfway competent
> >> >> They seem a long way away from even *half* competent.
> >> >> >big if), age will not be a deciding issue.
> >> >> I don't know what news outlets you follow but the ones I read are
> >> >> showing Trump now ahead of Biden in opinion polls with Biden's age a
> >> >> major factor, if not the most important one.
> >> >
> >> >The biggest assets the Democrats have are (1) Trump and (2) the Dobbs decision ending the constitutional right to abortion. Whether they are enough to outweigh the anti-majoritarian features of the US political system and the White resentment of Trump's base remains to be seen. Polls right now don't tell you all that much.
> >> They tell you that Biden has gone from ahead to behind and no reason
> >> to think it is going to get any better - those two factors have been
> >> therefor a while. Liz Cheney reckons that the US is sleepwalking into
> >> dictatorship - seems to me that the Democrats are the ones sleeping
> >> most soundly.
> >
> >The Democrats are full of too much angst to sleep soundly, at least the ones I know, and the ones I hear on the radio. If you have a suggestion for how to improve the odds of beating Trump, there's a ton of Democratic strategists who'd love to hear from you.
> ISTM that the strategy is very simple - retire Biden and put forward
> somebody fresher. If they really don't have someone fresher, then they
> might as well pack up their tents and go home.
Happy to hear suggestions for somebody fresher. All difficult problems have simple, obvious answers, the problem is how rarely the simple obvious answer really works. Time will tell. Unfortunately, Trump-like authoritarianism seems to be having a day in Europe and Asia, too.